I speak the same English that they used in the Bible.
Forsooth, verily.
I disagree with this and its my experience that there are assholes speaking every language and that the English speaking world tends to be the most understanding when it comes to second language speakers using improper words and/or grammar.
Also other Americans when given the chance: Grassyes.
In the UK we say “grassy arse” because it sounds like “arse”, which is a rude word
Americans when someone doesn’t speak English good enough: “They’re English is bad!!!”
It’s pretty hard to learn another language as an American unless you’re able to travel to a place where that is used. I wasn’t even allowed to take a foreign language class when I was in high school because I scored too poorly on English in grade school (from not doing homework, not because of aptitude). I haven’t really had a need for it in my adult life either other than like 3 times where I had Spanish speaking customers when I worked at in retail and we still managed to overcome the language barrier.
I did it in school in rural Ohio before the internet and with very few resources available. Basically anyone can do it. You don’t need immersion. Is it helpful? Yes. Is it necessary? No. Look at how many people live 40+ years in a country and never learn the language; immersion alone does almost nothing.
How do you know you’re pronouncing things correctly without native speakers to converse with?
Nice question :) A good textbook should go over the sounds in the language comparing them to something in the target audience’s language. This isn’t foolproof (a language YouTuber (Language Jones, I think?) was talking about trying to learn an African language, but the author expected reader to speak South African English where vowels differ from, for instance, US English), but it generally works pretty well. These days, wikipedia is also typically a great resource for reading about sounds in the language. Further, nowadays, you can toss stuff in Google Translate and have it speak. Finally, consume media from that country. When I was learning German, DeutscheWelle had a German-learning mp3 series. Also streaming radio in those days (no Youtube or anything yet).
Edit: and for output, the time-tested technique of shadowing is great. Record yourself if you can because your ears might do better picking up any mistakes when not speaking at the same time.
I find it funny that we both answered the same question and independently mentioned how Deutsche Welle’s
Deutsch: Warum nicht?taught us both German :)
I think there’s a big myth which I prescribed to back when I was a monolingual English speaker that somehow being “immersed” in a culture is how you become fluent. But my experience has always been that if you can’t understand what anyone’s saying, and are unable to say anything yourself, you just become mute and introverted.
I have no experience with Japanese, but the (in?)famous youtuber MattVsJapan detailed a time when he went to Japan without a base of knowledge and just went back home after every day to watch anime at home, then only really learned how to speak Japanese back in America afterwards. I had a similar experience in Germany — the first few years the only people I really spoke with were other expats and Germans in English.
The only real thing I think being immersed gives you is motivation to learn. But after you’re able to order in a restaurant and read basic signs, that motivation disappears pretty fast as you’re sort of about to just fumble through everything.
On the other hand, people speaking English has seemingly increased massively worldwide, despite the fact that in some countries it would be rare to even encounter an English speaking native. Notably, imo, the countries that are better at it tend to subtitle movies and TV rather than dub. Compare the Nordic countries with Germans, the Greeks vs the French, Koreans vs the Japanese.
It seems pretty clear to me (and I am by no means alone with this assertion) that the main way people learn is through exposure to the language, which is completely different than actually living in a place where you’re “immersed”.
So if you really wanted to learn a language, the best thing you could do is as soon as you’re able to (before, even) watch TV/films and read books in that target language. I think this book is an excellent explanation https://www.tesl-ej.org/books/lomb-2nd-Ed.pdf for German, I started really learning it only after listening to Deutsche Welle learning German radio shows and TV. The modern equivalent is this online TV show for beginners https://learngerman.dw.com/en/hallo/l-37250531 which is great. I learned more in a few episodes like this than I did with two years of formal teaching at school.
Sorry for sort of hijacking your comment, it just caused me to fall down a rabbit hole somewhat :)
It’s pretty hard to learn another language as an American unless you’re able to travel to a place where that is used
you can always learn Spanish… with over 10% of the population in America already speaking it, it should not be hard to find someone to practice or some content catered to them to practice with
That 10% is mostly clustered in the South or southwest. In my social circle I know one person that’s fluent and one who knows enough to get by and I didn’t meet them until my late 20s. I’ve run across other people here and there but it’s not really common where I live. It’s simply more effort than it’s worth at this point I wouldn’t really gain anything by being bilingual.
Yeah… this is incredibly dated.
I went to high school 20 years ago and it was mandatory to take at least 2 years of another language. My school was extra so they have 4 years available of Spanish/French/German/Japanese/Mandarin. That wasn’t case at every school in our district but they all had Spanish and French.
This was public school.
I don’t get the downvotes here. Learning a language is not easy without immersion. Yes you can bang through literature and even multiple courses… but without frequent use our brains simply lose the connection. Neurons that fire together wire together. This goes doubly for speech.
Many Americans (most?) are taught a second language in school but the lack of places to use it sees this education go to waste. The US is a large country with pockets of ethnic groups throughout - but as far as immersion with another language goes… it is sorely lacking.
It’s unfortunate but a reality.
Too add on
I took a Spanish class in high school
My dad knows some Spanish so he helped me practice but I passed with a good grade. I could not tell you one thing in Spanish. It was hard but kind of fun
Hopefully my several thoughts and word vomit make sense
It’s a lot about motivation. I’m sure many people have tried to learn a language, maybe on Duolingo or somewhere else. But as the initial excitement wears off, they give up. And that’s normal, that’s how most of us are built. You can’t beat brain chemistry with sweet arguments that “it’s good to know another language.” There needs to be a strong incentive from the outside, like school when the second language is mandatory, or life in another country with no access to a community that speaks your language. With the internet, that’s nearly impossible nowadays. There are a lot of expats who never assimilate in countries like Germany because in places like Berlin English will do. So I totally understand people from the US, who have limited access to other languages and cultures, plus whenever they go people speak English.
The internet argument goes both ways however: you can never leave your house and be able to interact with people from virtually anywhere, as well as consume content in any language.
Any of the big languages should have a multitude of free online courses available and places to talk to native speakers. These days anyone who wants to learn a second language has the means to do it. It’s difficult, but it’s accessible.
I mean I just get turned on.
More specifically because they are talking to me at all, not just in broken English.
This feels like French propaganda to deflect from how rude they tend to be if you don’t speak French
I will continue to maintain a laissez faire attitude towards French language.
I speak French until they have enough of me butchering their language with my Jersey (New) accent. Bon Joor, je voo le pan. They beg me to stop and I keep going. Jaim vo d-nay. Mare C bo coo. They thank me for leaving.
Ever heard japanese filtered through a southern accent? Oh HAI yo guh ZAI muss!
This was our favorite thing to do in my HS Japanese class. I still remember “skydiving”: skah-daaaah-ben-goo.
Even if you speak French or at least try to they go like: huh?!
Lean into it. Channel your inner Peggy Hill and repeat this phrase: Jay parlay fran-says tray bee-in. Jay-tude on lay-cole quart ons.
They will beg you to switch back to English
Brits: “This meme is wrong. .5 at best.”
Non-native English speakers are still often better at English than native English speakers that choose to write like they are illiterate.
In my experience Americans find it cool when they hear another language, Anglo-Canadians though, they don’t realize how racist they are towards French-Canadians and hate their language with a passion.
From my experience as someone who lives in Alberta and who considers himself English Canadian, no one here actively hates french language or culture. We simply don’t have enough of a need for french or enough of a cultural presence to really embrace it, and anyone who wants to has to actively go out of their way to do so. Maybe it’s different in Ontario, but it isn’t racism or hate. We simply don’t use it
Albertans don’t hate on French Canadians, they hate on Quebec specifically.
Hell, my friend went to work in the oil fields and had his car (with Quebec plate) vandalized at work in the first week he was there because he didn’t have the time to register it in Alberta and was then told by other people it happened to that it’s just what happens to all Quebecois over there…
French-Canadians, on the other hand, fully realize how racist they are towards Anglo-Canadians and hate their language with a passion.
They do that by bending backwards and talking English whenever there’s an Anglophone present no matter if they’re the only one in a group of ten that doesn’t speak French fluently 👍
They do that by having the biggest college and university in Quebec be English ones (the latter being the third richest in Canada) 👍
They do that by being more bilingual 👍
They do that by never having prevented them from going to learn their language in school contrary to what happened to French Canadians outside Quebec 👍
Fucking French Canadians and their hate for the english language! Truly they’re bigots all of them!
They do that by bending backwards and talking English whenever there’s an Anglophone present no matter if they’re the only one in a group of ten that doesn’t speak French fluently
Sure, if you’re lucky enough to be on the south side of Montreal and literally nowhere else.
They do that by having the biggest college and university in Quebec be English ones (the latter being the third richest in Canada)
They’re so generous that they just doubled tuition for out-of-province students, a clear attack on their English-speaking institutions, and one so severe that many programs at these schools will have to cut up to 25% of their course offerings to make up the budget shortfalls. Clearly they’re throwing their full support behind their internationally-acclaimed English institutions.
They do that by being more bilingual
Lol, again, sure, if you happen to live in the southern half of Montreal, maybe. And that’s not counting the huge number of people who clearly speak English but refuse to do so for nationalistic reasons. I know literally zero French-speaking Anglo-Canadians who show similar behavior.
They do that by never having prevented them from learning their language in school contrary to what happened to French Canadians outside Quebec
It is literally illegal for me to send my two kids to an English-speaking school right now, so you can go peddle that crock of shit to someone who doesn’t have to deal with Quebec’s language bullshit on a daily basis. And that’s not even to mention Quebec’s abysmal record, both historically and recently on first nations language policies.
(By the way, it’s also illegal for me to try to seek healthcare in English in Quebec now too. Just another fun fyi for ya.)
Fucking French Canadians and their hate for the english language! Truly they’re bigots all of them!
This, but (mostly) unironically.
Sure, if you’re lucky enough to be on the south side of Montreal and literally nowhere else.
Bull fucking shit, https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2016/as-sa/98-200-x/2016009/98-200-x2016009-eng.cfm
The only places where you’ll have a hard time getting service in English is in rural regions very far from major city centers. Heck, first Nations in Abitibi often speak English and they get service in that language.
They’re so generous that they just [doubled tuition for out-of-province students
Which is still lower than the price it costs for out of province students to go to school in other provinces, you forgot to mention that part
I know literally zero French-speaking Anglo-Canadians who show similar behavior.
Go spend some time in the west island or north of Gatineau and say that again with a straight face
It is literally illegal for me to send my two kids to an English-speaking school *right now
One of either parents needs to have went to school in English and it can also be accepted under other conditions, how about checking the government’s website instead of looking at an anti-French journal?
By the way, it’s also [illegal for me to try to seek healthcare in English in Quebec now too
Fear mongering by English media and not the reality? Who would have thought? 😱
The only places where you’ll have a hard time getting service in English is in rural regions very far from major city centers.
This just shows that you either don’t live here or are a French-speaker and therefore don’t see it (which is ironic given your initial comment). In Quebec City I’ve been refused service in French for even asking about service in English.
Which is still lower than the price it costs for out of province students to go to school in other provinces
Where are you getting this info? Most of the sources I can find show that most Quebec students pay rates comparable to in-province students across Anglophone Canada. Quebec seems to be the only one actively legislating discriminatory policies here.
One of either parents needs to have went to school in English
We both went to school in English, but it’s still illegal for us because we’re immigrants. Trust me, we’ve checked, and the fact that you automatically jumped to assuming that I’d even know where to find an “anti-French journal” speaks volumes about your perspective on this conversation.
Edit: I just realized you probably meant “newspaper” here. I get all of my info about stuff like this from the government website, and from calling government services to make sure I fully understand my (lack of) rights.
Fear mongering by English media and not the reality? Who would have thought? 😱
I’m not sure how something I have to deal with on a weekly basis is fear mongering. The problem with your source there is that to be seen at any of those facilities I first have to go through RAMQ, and literally every time I call RAMQ I have to declare, under penalty of perjury, that I’m legally entitled to use English in order to use it, and again, I’m not legally entitled to use it because I’m an immigrant, so I have to stumble through MY FUCKING HEALTHCARE in a language I don’t speak fluently, when they literally have service available in the language but just refuse it to me for prejudicial reasons.
By this point it’s clear that you have no interest in opening your eyes to the realities that many English speakers face in Quebec, possibly for the nationalistic reasons that led to these (increasingly severe) discriminatory policies in the first place, so I see little reason to continue this conversation.
For everyone else following this convo, just keep in mind that linguistic discrimination can happen to English speakers just like it can to other languages (though in aggregate English obviously still holds a place of privilege relative to most other languages). And if you’re reading this and you’re lucky enough to have voting rights in Quebec, please vote for candidates that support non-discriminatory language policies.
Where are you getting this info? Most of the sources I can find show that most Quebec students pay rates comparable to in-province students across Anglophone Canada. Quebec seems to be the only one actively legislating discriminatory policies here.
Cegep and university in Quebec is cheaper than the equivalents in other provinces.
Just go on different university websites and create a fair application as an out of province student and compare the rates.
Quebec’s part of the university fees were so low that the rates were cheaper than in other provinces for out of province students. People flipped out because they were comparing the cost to studying in their own province vs coming to witness without looking at what it costs if the situation is reversed.
There’s very few exceptions where parents that went to school in English wouldn’t be able to send their kids to an English school, even for immigrants
https://educaloi.qc.ca/en/capsules/access-to-english-schools-in-quebec/
How long have you been living in Quebec? The way you talk you’ve been all over the place so I’m going to bet quite a while, right? So if you were in contact with the RAMQ before the new law you can have service in English without fear of a law that will never be applied. If you have been here more than six months but not long enough to be exempted you just go to through the English service and you tell them “Je ne parle pas très bien le français, désolé, je suis en train d’apprendre.” and that will be it, if you’ve been here less than six months the law doesn’t apply.
Not so hard right?
Now I want you to think about the opposite situation, if you were a French only speaker and you went to live in British-Colombia, what do you think French provincial services would look like? You know, there’s a reason why they don’t need to implement similar laws over there, it’s because the services don’t exist in the first place so you get service in English or you don’t get service at all. Just remember, the conversation was about French Canadians vs Anglo Canadians, French Canadians exist outside Quebec and they’re treated like fucking shit compared to Anglo Canadians living in Quebec and could only dream to have access to as much services.
I’ve been here two years, so my family is right in the middle of the “get fucked” zone in basically every possible way for the foreseeable future. (This also includes being repeatedly denied permanent residency that we would automatically be granted if we lived 50km west of where we do, i.e. in Ontario. According to the HR director at my company, after the passage of the law Immigration has started an unofficial policy of putting residency applications that otherwise have enough points to qualify but don’t speak French directly into the “reject” pile.)
I appreciate you taking time to provide the links and advice though.
I’m definitely not saying that French-Canadians have it better in the rest of Canada and that has never been my argument – I completely agree with your original comment that Anglo-Canadians are unintentionally racist toward French-Canadians, but my original comment is also 100% true, that French-Canadians are instead intentionally racist toward English speakers.
Fully agree with this, homie. Wife and I lived in Montreal area as temporary foreign workers for like 4 years. Tried so hard to fit in and be polite, but would essentially get spit at or ignored everytime my accent was a tiny bit off. Didn’t say it perfectly the Quebecois way? Fuck you. Ask something in English? Hope you’re in a tourist area, otherwise fuck you. Want your medical records/labs in a different language? Fuck you. Ask for English menus? Fuck you and now your waitress hates you.
Also watched a friend from France repeatedly get told he’s speaking French wrong. Also they have like an actual department of language policing.
Quebec is poopy buttsauce. 0/10. Happy to be gone. Celine Dion is overrated. Sorry not sorry.
and not just language
You mean the french?
MAAAAAAAHAAAA THE FRENCH
Broken english is one thing. Butchered is quite another
My personal hint for everyone learning a foreign language to be understood in another country: Pronunciation, pronunciation, pronunciation! You only need around 2000 words to get around, but no-one can understand you if you butcher each and every one of the 100k words you’ve learned. Also grammar is optional. Nouns, adjectives and verbs in their basic forms convey enough meaning.
As an American, when I learn another language I am taught to pronounce it correctly in the accent of that language. And yet when people from other countries learn English, it’s so heavily accented and poorly pronounced I can barely understand wtf they’re saying.
Especially looking at you, Indians.
What is the “correct accent” for English? Even within America there are so many. The southern accent is so different from the Minnesota accent. Most Americans will have difficulty understanding a Scottish or Irish person speaking with a strong accent, but I doubt anyone is going to tell them to speak differently. Given the plurality of accents, it’s on the listener to adapt. Unless, of course, everyone is expected to speak with RP.
Most Americans will have difficulty understanding a Scottish or Irish person speaking with a strong accent
This tells you that Irish or Scottish is not the correct accent. However, someone who speaks Southern British English will be understood by everyone.
What is the “correct accent” for English?
One that is understandable.
Most Americans will have difficulty understanding a Scottish or Irish person speaking with a strong accent, but I doubt anyone is going to tell them to speak differently.
Dunno what world you live in. I have two different coworkers who specifically have been told they need to work on their accent. One is Kenyan and the other is Welsh. People from white countries don’t get a pass.
It’s not racism, it’s understandability.
Is there a standard measure of how “understandable” an accent is? It is quite a subjective thing based on where one is from.
You mentioned India previously - there are 350 million English speakers in South Asia (with marginally varying accents) who can understand each other perfectly well. They may not, on the other hand, find it as easy to understand American accented English. Who should change?
I find German and Singaporean/Malaysian accented English easier to understand than most American accents, because they share phonemes with the languages I speak. Which is more understandable in this case?
The assertion I’m challenging is that there is a “correct accent” that is universally intelligible to all, especially for a language as widely spoken as English. I think the only way we can bridge this gap is to be better listeners. Realistically, it doesn’t even take a couple of weeks to become comfortable understanding a different accent, probably much less if you pay attention. Personally, I find this issue to be very intertwined with the tolerance we have to develop to live in a multicultural society.
Dunno what world you live in. I have two different coworkers who specifically have been told they need to work on their accent. One is Kenyan and the other is Welsh.
You said you were American (though it’s not clear if you work in America, so forgive the assumption) but if this was official feedback then it seems to be in violation of Title VII of the Civil Rights Act. There seem to have been successful lawsuits (example, example - see Brown and Brown Chevrolet, 2008) for the same.
You are making this way more complicated than it needs to be. People need to be understood by the people they are talking to. There’s no “correct accent”, just whatever makes you understood by the other party.
but if this was official feedback then it seems to be in violation of Title VII of the Civil Rights Act.
Not in the fucking slightest and it’s actually making me angry that you would imply “you need to be understandable” is in any way equivalent to
constantly made fun of their accents, ordering them to speak English even when they were already speaking in English. Some Filipino-American workers endured humiliating threats of arrest if they did not speak English and were told to go back to the Philippines. In a particularly offensive incident, an employee sprayed air freshener on a claimant’s lunch due to the offender’s self-professed hatred of Filipino food.
and
subjected to explicit and graphic commentary about their body parts by their supervisor; spreading rumors about their purported sexual activities; spying on them as they attempted to use portable toilets; engaging in sexual bantering and joking regarding the women with certain male harvesters.
If no one knows what the fuck you’re saying, it’s impossible to do your job. That’s all.
Do you people just invent these problems because you hate Americans? Like… How do you come up with this garbage propaganda? Are you just reposting from tankie run bots designed to sow discord?
To be fair, 95% of people on that continent speak one or more of three languages. And those three languages (English, Spanish, French) are among the most widely spoken languages in the world.
This isn’t true of anyone I’ve ever known, and i believe it isn’t true for the majority of Americans. I believe it’s a loudly vocal minority who get angry at people speaking other languages
Dear sir/madam, this is a meme.
Exaggeration for comedic effect is not a crime.
lmfao evidently a meme that makes people very angry. 15+ downvotes. fuckin americans man. you guys truly fucking hate each other. good job! great culture, just the best stuff… totally worth fighting for, and definitely worth inflicting on the rest of the world, buncha bitches
“Merica bad”
Lol ok kiddo
I don’t understand your comment. What is the fighting happening here that you’re mocking?
“inflicting” Let’s not pretend your entire life isn’t wrapped up in American merchandise, food, and media. And no one forced it on you
This is truer than you might expect. Just not as blatant as the meme. Especially in a work context, people will underestimate someone’s abilities, be inpatient with clarifications or simply favour others for tasks.
It’s unconcious with some people, they don’t even know they’re doing it.
I am a first language English speaker, but my partner isn’t and it’s really opened my eyes to how much we underestimate the language difficulties immigrants can have.
Not to say everyone is struggling, but just that I think English speakers do take language skills for granted. And unconsciously are biased towards people based on their preserved language skills.
Even once you’re fluent, like my partner well and truly is, it’s still hard.
Yes, but this is the Fediverse, so Americabad
