If you read the rest of my comment, I acknowledged that foreign capitalists are taking all the profit. The question is, what’s the solution? Because any local leadership in such a country, whether left or right wing, is likely to be corrupt and serving their own interests over that of the people.
any local leadership in such a country, whether left or right wing, is likely to be corrupt and serving their own interests over that of the people.
Well, my position as a communist is that the local leadership should be supported on popular grassroots movements, which will no doubt spawn in these countries eventually as they did naturally in Iran with Mosaddeq, in Cuba with Fidel, or in China with Mao. Of course, only socialist leaders fight to improve the actual living conditions of the people, which is why all poverty alleviation in the past half a century comes from China, which took 800 million people out of poverty and extreme poverty.
which is why all poverty alleviation in the past half a century comes from China, which took 800 million people out of poverty and extreme poverty.
Uhhh China has been embracing capitalism for a few decades now, sorry to say.
Problem with the “global south”, on the local level, is not even capitalism vs socialism. It’s corruption. The corruption of course stems from the poverty. When the leaders of your country come from poverty, had to gain power by force, and suddenly have access to resources… They do tend to abuse their access.
Yes, a functional socialist leadership is the best way forward for any of these countries, but even a well regulated capitalist system would be better than the leaders just selling their country to a bunch of corporations to increase their own wealth.
Uhhh China has been embracing capitalism for a few decades now, sorry to say.
China hasn’t been embracing capitalism, China has been reigning in capitalism through Dengism and Socialism with Chinese Characteristics. Why did China develop and industrialize while India didn’t? Why didn’t the same process as in China take place in Indonesia or Philippines or Bangladesh or Pakistan, all of them capitalist countries? Why didn’t Mexico or Brazil have similar growth rates?
Why did China develop and industrialize while India didn’t? Why didn’t the same process as in China take place in Indonesia or Philippines or Bangladesh or Pakistan, all of them capitalist countries
China mixes and matches capitalism with state capitalism and socialism. They use subsidies to squash overseas competition, that’s why you can get things for basically free, shipping included, from Aliexpress. China has almost as many billionaires as the US - and is going to overtake them soon enough.
They’re smart in utilizing protectionism too. It’s way harder for western companies to sell things to the Chinese than Chinese companies to sell things to the west. For an example, Volkswagen sells cars through joint ventures with Chinese companies. They can’t just have a western-owned company selling the cars.
Why not India? Tough to say. For one reason or another, China became the factory of the world. Since then, they’ve made a lot of smart decisions to both profit from it as much as possible, and retain their status (just look at Shenzhen. There’s no alternative in the world). The other countries you mentioned could never have the economies of scale that China does. India is the only one that theoretically could.
Yes. The serious analysis is that the Communist Party of China didn’t just “go capitalist”, it’s socialist with Chinese caracteristics. They did allow for a massive inflow of capital, but they reigned it in in such a way that the country would industrialize and develop, and not just be exploited for resources and cheap labour as it happens with India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Indonesia or Philippines.
If I brought up South Korea it was to explain why the capitalist model doesn’t seem to work for everyone, not because I like the south-korean fascist dictatorship. It’s very easy to industrially develop when the American policy is to industrialize you through massive investment in industry and with tech transfer because they want you as a loyal military base, and not as an enslaved peripheral colony. The problem isn’t “corruption in poor countries”, because China was poor and it did develop, and the Soviet Union was poor and it developed. The problem is finding the correct formula for industrialization while not allowing the western empire to demolish you for trying. The Soviet way was self-suficient economy, state-directed 5-year economic plans, and safety through nuclear deterrence. The Chinese way was to antagonize the Soviets to become a western pseudo-ally, attracting investment from the western capitalist companies in the sectors of the economy they wanted, and to reign in these investments so that China wouldn’t be a colony but an industrialized country with sovereignty of its own. Without communist parties at the head, Pakistan, India, Phillipines and Indonesia couldn’t manage this.
Mate, I’m Estonian. Get the fuck out of here with any soviet praise.
The soviet way was to have the elites be rich, while deporting regular people with too many cows in their barn to Siberia. They were doing pretty much what ICE is doing in the US right now - complain that your neighbour is a kulak, and they get removed. Only in the US it’s “complain that your neighbour is MS-13, and they get removed”. Plus the 5 year economic plans brought with them lovely things like the Holodomor.
China is going to have the most billionaires of any nation in probably less than a decade. “Socialism with Chinese characteristics” is just capitalism with actual oversight. Truth is, their government, particularly the court system, actually sides with corporations more than people. Try criticizing a major corporation and you’re fucked. Not even just Chinese corporations. You can’t criticize fucking Tesla in China.
If you want an actual example of the success of communism, there’s always Cuba. They’re blockaded by pretty much everyone, and yet have a pretty good standard of living. Better healthcare than many European nations, let alone the US. They may be poor, but that’s more the US’s fault than Cuba’s own.
me checks timeline and notices that this poverty allevation didn’t start until long after Mao’s death and only after China switched to a capitalist mode of production…
Lol, that is fake news. Life expectancy dropped during the war period as expected, but it was about as high before the war as it was after. The methods Mao employed rather delayed the recovery.
I had the same discussion with one of your fellow MLs before, and this is just completely silly cherry-picking of data to make the disasterous policies of Mao look somehow less bad 🤡
Life expectancy from the graph was stable at abourt35 years old from 1850 to 1945, then Mao wins the war, and dies in 1976 with 60 years of life expectancy. Can you please tell me how to misread that?
An anarchist is indistinguishable from a lib when it comes to uneducated criticism of communism.
The data in your graph is too coarse to show the war dip, but other similar graphs your ML friends always cite, conveniently start right in the middle of the war period.
But regardless of that, your graph clearly shows that the before and after war life expectency was about the same, then there was a significantly delayed improvement during Mao’s reign of terror, and when he was sidelined due to illness in the 1970ties and capitalist policies adopted, China finally caught up to its peer counties.
And you can clearly see that Mao delayed the improvements seen during that time all over the world. And no, I am not claiming SK was a great country during that time, yet somehow despite having a brutal military dictatorship they still outperformed China under Mao on this metric, which shows just how bad Mao did.
If you read the rest of my comment, I acknowledged that foreign capitalists are taking all the profit. The question is, what’s the solution? Because any local leadership in such a country, whether left or right wing, is likely to be corrupt and serving their own interests over that of the people.
Well, my position as a communist is that the local leadership should be supported on popular grassroots movements, which will no doubt spawn in these countries eventually as they did naturally in Iran with Mosaddeq, in Cuba with Fidel, or in China with Mao. Of course, only socialist leaders fight to improve the actual living conditions of the people, which is why all poverty alleviation in the past half a century comes from China, which took 800 million people out of poverty and extreme poverty.
Uhhh China has been embracing capitalism for a few decades now, sorry to say.
Problem with the “global south”, on the local level, is not even capitalism vs socialism. It’s corruption. The corruption of course stems from the poverty. When the leaders of your country come from poverty, had to gain power by force, and suddenly have access to resources… They do tend to abuse their access.
Yes, a functional socialist leadership is the best way forward for any of these countries, but even a well regulated capitalist system would be better than the leaders just selling their country to a bunch of corporations to increase their own wealth.
China hasn’t been embracing capitalism, China has been reigning in capitalism through Dengism and Socialism with Chinese Characteristics. Why did China develop and industrialize while India didn’t? Why didn’t the same process as in China take place in Indonesia or Philippines or Bangladesh or Pakistan, all of them capitalist countries? Why didn’t Mexico or Brazil have similar growth rates?
China mixes and matches capitalism with state capitalism and socialism. They use subsidies to squash overseas competition, that’s why you can get things for basically free, shipping included, from Aliexpress. China has almost as many billionaires as the US - and is going to overtake them soon enough.
They’re smart in utilizing protectionism too. It’s way harder for western companies to sell things to the Chinese than Chinese companies to sell things to the west. For an example, Volkswagen sells cars through joint ventures with Chinese companies. They can’t just have a western-owned company selling the cars.
Why not India? Tough to say. For one reason or another, China became the factory of the world. Since then, they’ve made a lot of smart decisions to both profit from it as much as possible, and retain their status (just look at Shenzhen. There’s no alternative in the world). The other countries you mentioned could never have the economies of scale that China does. India is the only one that theoretically could.
i.e. you don’t have a serious analysis.
So why don’t they have South-Korean style development?
Do you?
Are Chaebols a good thing now?
Yes. The serious analysis is that the Communist Party of China didn’t just “go capitalist”, it’s socialist with Chinese caracteristics. They did allow for a massive inflow of capital, but they reigned it in in such a way that the country would industrialize and develop, and not just be exploited for resources and cheap labour as it happens with India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Indonesia or Philippines.
If I brought up South Korea it was to explain why the capitalist model doesn’t seem to work for everyone, not because I like the south-korean fascist dictatorship. It’s very easy to industrially develop when the American policy is to industrialize you through massive investment in industry and with tech transfer because they want you as a loyal military base, and not as an enslaved peripheral colony. The problem isn’t “corruption in poor countries”, because China was poor and it did develop, and the Soviet Union was poor and it developed. The problem is finding the correct formula for industrialization while not allowing the western empire to demolish you for trying. The Soviet way was self-suficient economy, state-directed 5-year economic plans, and safety through nuclear deterrence. The Chinese way was to antagonize the Soviets to become a western pseudo-ally, attracting investment from the western capitalist companies in the sectors of the economy they wanted, and to reign in these investments so that China wouldn’t be a colony but an industrialized country with sovereignty of its own. Without communist parties at the head, Pakistan, India, Phillipines and Indonesia couldn’t manage this.
Mate, I’m Estonian. Get the fuck out of here with any soviet praise.
The soviet way was to have the elites be rich, while deporting regular people with too many cows in their barn to Siberia. They were doing pretty much what ICE is doing in the US right now - complain that your neighbour is a kulak, and they get removed. Only in the US it’s “complain that your neighbour is MS-13, and they get removed”. Plus the 5 year economic plans brought with them lovely things like the Holodomor.
China is going to have the most billionaires of any nation in probably less than a decade. “Socialism with Chinese characteristics” is just capitalism with actual oversight. Truth is, their government, particularly the court system, actually sides with corporations more than people. Try criticizing a major corporation and you’re fucked. Not even just Chinese corporations. You can’t criticize fucking Tesla in China.
If you want an actual example of the success of communism, there’s always Cuba. They’re blockaded by pretty much everyone, and yet have a pretty good standard of living. Better healthcare than many European nations, let alone the US. They may be poor, but that’s more the US’s fault than Cuba’s own.
me checks timeline and notices that this poverty allevation didn’t start until long after Mao’s death and only after China switched to a capitalist mode of production…
Fake news. Life expectancy in China before Mao was 35, by the time he died was close to 60, Maoism saved hundreds of millions of lives.
Lol, that is fake news. Life expectancy dropped during the war period as expected, but it was about as high before the war as it was after. The methods Mao employed rather delayed the recovery.
I had the same discussion with one of your fellow MLs before, and this is just completely silly cherry-picking of data to make the disasterous policies of Mao look somehow less bad 🤡
So easy to prove libs wrong man
Lol, can you even read that graph? MLs constantly disproving themselves with their own sources 🙄
And I am not a “lib”, but an Anarchist 😅
Edit: and compare your above graph with this: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1088199/life-expectancy-south-korea-historical/ and then think about during which years Mao had the most influence on policy decisions in China…
Life expectancy from the graph was stable at abourt35 years old from 1850 to 1945, then Mao wins the war, and dies in 1976 with 60 years of life expectancy. Can you please tell me how to misread that?
An anarchist is indistinguishable from a lib when it comes to uneducated criticism of communism.
The data in your graph is too coarse to show the war dip, but other similar graphs your ML friends always cite, conveniently start right in the middle of the war period.
But regardless of that, your graph clearly shows that the before and after war life expectency was about the same, then there was a significantly delayed improvement during Mao’s reign of terror, and when he was sidelined due to illness in the 1970ties and capitalist policies adopted, China finally caught up to its peer counties.
Just compare your graph with the development in South Korea: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1088199/life-expectancy-south-korea-historical/
And you can clearly see that Mao delayed the improvements seen during that time all over the world. And no, I am not claiming SK was a great country during that time, yet somehow despite having a brutal military dictatorship they still outperformed China under Mao on this metric, which shows just how bad Mao did.