Lemmy Fans
  • Communities
  • Create Post
  • Create Community
  • heart
    Support Lemmy
  • search
    Search
  • Login
  • Sign Up
The Picard Maneuver@lemmy.world to Microblog Memes@lemmy.worldEnglish · 24 days ago

It's hard to say goodbye

lemmy.world

message-square
153
link
fedilink
840

It's hard to say goodbye

lemmy.world

The Picard Maneuver@lemmy.world to Microblog Memes@lemmy.worldEnglish · 24 days ago
message-square
153
link
fedilink
  • andros_rex@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    1
    ·
    24 days ago

    ”study of studies”

    Yes my sweet child - that is called a meta-analysis.

    • Cryophilia@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      1
      ·
      24 days ago

      Yeah no fucking shit, Sherlock

      • andros_rex@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        2
        arrow-down
        1
        ·
        24 days ago

        I think we see the real problem here - you are addicted and aggressive because you are going through withdrawal. Also a bit of Dunning-Krueger - guess you are an undergraduate engineering student with no training in medicine or statistics.

        • Cryophilia@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          2
          arrow-down
          2
          ·
          24 days ago

          No withdawal - I’m vaping right now.

          Vapes saved me from an early death due to smoking and it bothers me on a personal level when people spout falsehoods about them. And on a civic level when those people are government officials.

          • andros_rex@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            2
            ·
            edit-2
            23 days ago

            People are not “spouting falsehoods.” Read the studies I linked. You weren’t impressed with meta-analysis you found, the studies I show described their methodologies in detail.

            Vaping may be better than smoking, but it is not good for you. Nicotine is harmful. Aerosols in your lungs are harmful. These are not really things you can argue with.

            • Cryophilia@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              1
              arrow-down
              2
              ·
              23 days ago

              Sure, I agree. But it’s SO MUCH LESS than tobacco that we should not view them as in the same ballpark.

              • andros_rex@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                3
                ·
                23 days ago

                You can argue that it is less harmful (which I would agree that the lower temperature and lack of burning plant matter is probably a good thing), but arguing that it is not harmful at all is solidly pseudoscience.

                Arguing that there is a conspiracy between the government and scientific researchers to pretend that nicotine is harmful is getting into Qanon territory.

                I worked in a middle school, and this kind of “vape is harmless” rhetoric is literally killing children. And yes - middle schoolers are probably getting sketchy carts from China - but a lot of them are hurt by the idea that vape is perfectly safe. (Friend helped on a school district lawsuit against Juul)

                CDC data from 2020:

                As of February 18, 2020, a total of 2,807 hospitalized EVALI cases or deaths have been reported to CDC from all 50 states, the District of Columbia, and two U.S. territories (Puerto Rico and U.S. Virgin Islands). Sixty-eight deaths have been confirmed in 29 states and the District of Columbia (as of February 18, 2020).

                Remember how desperately the cigarette industry attacked the science behind the harm caused by smoking - the lies, the paying off doctors? I know you said you won’t click on YouTube links, but Knowing Better has a great video on that history. Do you think the people manufacturing vapes have your best interest at heart, and wouldn’t do the same?

                • Cryophilia@lemmy.world
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  1
                  ·
                  23 days ago

                  So far, the only sketchy science I’ve seen has been people trying to claim vapes are killing our children. It’s a classic moral hysteria. Every. Single. Case. Of kids being harmed by vapes has been sketchy Chinese shit, which they wouldn’t try to get if you people weren’t so insistent on banning vapes in the US!

                  I’m arguing that vapes are less harmful than alcohol, fast food, or car exhaust. Less harmful than sitting at a desk all day. Less harmful than any of a thousand things people do daily. This absolute hysteria around vaping needs to end.

                  And it’s less a conspiracy than a social movement - if you want funding, find vapes to be harmful. If you want your career destroyed, tell the truth. I don’t think there’s a cabal of evil moustache-twirling scientists; I think there’s a very powerful social and financial incentive to come to certain conclusions.

                  • andros_rex@lemmy.world
                    link
                    fedilink
                    English
                    arrow-up
                    1
                    ·
                    edit-2
                    23 days ago

                    I don’t think the science is sketchy - I’ve linked 4 or 5 studies so far which seem to indicate that nicotine has cancer promoting effects and seem to be in mostly decent journals. (I’m not an oncologist ofc, if you’d like to make some arguments about the impact factors of those journals, that’s usually the last refuge of “the science clearly shows something I don’t like.”) Here’s another:

                    E-cigarette use has been reported to affect cell viability, induce DNA damage, and modulate an inflammatory response resulting in negative health consequences. Most studies focus on oral and lung disease associated with e-cigarette use. However, tissue damage can be found in the cardio-vascular system and even the bladder. While the levels of carcinogenic compounds found in e-cigarette aerosols are lower than those in conventional cigarette smoke, the toxicants generated by the heat of the vaping device may include probable human carcinogens. Furthermore, nicotine, although not a carcinogen, can be metabolized to nitrosamines. Nitrosamines are known carcinogens and have been shown to be present in the saliva of e-cig users, demonstrating the health risk of e-cigarette vaping. E-cig vape can induce DNA adducts, promoting oxidative stress and DNA damage and NF-kB-driven inflammation. Together, these processes increase the transcription of pro-inflammatory cytokines. This creates a microenvironment thought to play a key role in tumorigenesis, although it is too early to know the long-term effects of vaping. This review considers different aspects of e-cigarette-induced cellular changes, including the generation of reactive oxygen species, DNA damage, DNA repair, inflammation, and the possible tumorigenic effects.

                    And yes - we are surrounded by carcinogens. The harm of nicotine is that it facilitates those carcinogenic effects. If you’ll read that article, or the others I’ve linked - that’s what the problem is. Carcinogen + nicotine = increased risk of cancer.

                    if you want funding, find vapes to be harmful. If you want your career destroyed, tell the truth.

                    What is more financially incentivized here? Let’s “qui bono” our conspiracy theory.

                    Do you think that Juul or Phillip Morris or whatever wouldn’t fund studies that said vape is harmless? When we think, who has the money for funding, who makes money from the conception of vape as harmless…

                    Why exactly do scientists and the government have a “party line” against vapes? Do you not realize that the same arguments you are making now were made about cigarettes?

                    Edit: diving into that study more:

                    In some cases, cellular damage from e-cigs was found to be more extensive [my emphasis] than the damage imposed by traditional cigarettes [56]. Comparing the exposure of different bronchial epithelial cell isolates from COPD patients with vaporized JUUL and a reference standard cigarette showed augmented cell cytotoxicity, especially in response to flavored e-cig aerosols and LDH secretion as previously reported [57]. A 2019 study on the airway smooth muscle cells (ASMCs) of COPD patients showed increased secretion of IL8 following e-cigarette exposure, supporting other reports that e-cigarettes lead to increased neutrophilic inflammation in pulmonary tissues [55]. The findings in this study suggest the progression of COPD may be accelerated by e-cigarette use [55]. The pathogenesis of COPD is highly associated with increased inflammation, particularly from macrophages and neutrophils [55]. Of note, as previously mentioned, even the carrier liquid component propylene glycol can negatively affect the airways: Using bronchial epithelial cells and an in vivo sheep model, it was demonstrated that exposure to e-cig aerosol of 100% propylene glycol resulted in increased mucus concentration as relevant to lung disease and COPD [58], Figure 1. The exposure of human airway epithelial cells to e-cig aerosols can increase the secretion of inflammatory cytokines, such as IL6 and IL8. Furthermore, human lung fibroblasts show stress responses and morphological changes upon e-cig exposure, such as an increased secretion of IL8 or even cell death, especially after treatment with cinnamon-flavored e-liquid [59].

Microblog Memes@lemmy.world

microblogmemes@lemmy.world

Subscribe from Remote Instance

Create a post
You are not logged in. However you can subscribe from another Fediverse account, for example Lemmy or Mastodon. To do this, paste the following into the search field of your instance: [email protected]

A place to share screenshots of Microblog posts, whether from Mastodon, tumblr, Twitter X, KBin, Threads or elsewhere.

Created as an evolution of White People Twitter and other tweet-capture subreddits.

Rules:

  1. Please put at least one word relevant to the post in the post title.
  2. Be nice.
  3. No advertising, brand promotion or guerilla marketing.
  4. Posters are encouraged to link to the toot or tweet etc in the description of posts.

Related communities:

  • [email protected]
  • [email protected]
Visibility: Public
globe

This community can be federated to other instances and be posted/commented in by their users.

  • 1.27K users / day
  • 6.32K users / week
  • 13.1K users / month
  • 26.9K users / 6 months
  • 2 local subscribers
  • 7.58K subscribers
  • 2.42K Posts
  • 103K Comments
  • Modlog
  • mods:
  • Ready! Player 31@lemmy.world
  • aeronmelon@lemmy.world
  • needanke@feddit.org
  • BE: 0.19.11
  • Modlog
  • Instances
  • Docs
  • Code
  • join-lemmy.org