• barsoap@lemm.ee
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    7 months ago

    He’s proving the existence of authority (with a definition thats wide/encompasses the libertarian framework).

    He’s not using that definition anywhere in his article.

    If you know think about going for the “but Engel’s definition is broader, therefore, his argument is still valid” boy oh boy I suggest you study logic. That’s not how widening and narrowing works.

    Say, cooks. They say: “These things are fruits, and with them we can make fruit salads”. Botanists say “These things are fruit, our category is wider, it includes tomatoes, therefore, you can make fruit salad with tomatoes”.

    • carl_marks[use name]@lemmy.ml
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      7 months ago

      Say, cooks. They say: “These things are fruits, and with them we can make fruit salads”. Botanists say “These things are fruit, our category is wider, it includes tomatoes, therefore, you can make fruit salad with tomatoes”.

      Ok I can see where the problem is. You don’t know how narrowing and widening works.

      Fruit in fruit salads describes the salad. It’s the qualifier. The proper application would be:

      Botanist says:" These things are fruits. We have tomatoes, etc. I can make fruit salad". Cooks ways:“A fruit salad is a type of salad. I have noodles I can make noodle salad. I use a wider definition of salad which encompasses fruit salads, noodle salads and a bunch of others”

      • barsoap@lemm.ee
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        7 months ago

        Fruit in fruit salads describes the salad. It’s the qualifier.

        Indeed, it is a qualifier. A qualifier that the botanists widened. When they said “you can make a fruit salad with tomatoes” they used their definition of fruits, but the narrower definition of cooks for “fruit salad” (there’s no botanical definition of “fruit salad”, it’s a purely culinary term). Thus, we have a category error.

        On the narrowing side that category error is generally not present, say, you can narrow down “fruit” to “tropical fruit” or “temperate fruit” and still get perfectly valid fruit salads made from those narrower categories. Heck you can narrow it down to “banana” and get a fruit salad, even if it may be a bit bland.

        • carl_marks[use name]@lemmy.ml
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          7 months ago

          Indeed, it is a qualifier. A qualifier that the botanists widened. When they said “you can make a fruit salad with tomatoes” they used their definition of fruits, but the narrower definition of cooks for “fruit salad” (there’s no botanical definition of “fruit salad”, it’s a purely culinary term). Thus, we have a category error.

          Yes we have a category error because you made it The botanist is narrowing down the category of salads by qualifying it to be fruit salads.

          On the narrowing side that category error is generally not present, say, you can narrow down “fruit” to “tropical fruit” or “temperate fruit” and still get perfectly valid fruit salads made from those narrower categories. Heck you can narrow it down to “banana” and get a fruit salad, even if it may be a bit bland.

          Yes you’re right in this example the qualifier is tropical that narrows down fruits. In the previous example we talked about fruit salads. The category being salads.

          • barsoap@lemm.ee
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            7 months ago

            The botanist is narrowing down the category of salads by qualifying it to be fruit salads.

            The cooks made a statement about fruit salads, not salads in general. It is not under contention that caprese is a salad and includes tomatoes. It’s also not a fruit salad.

            • carl_marks[use name]@lemmy.ml
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              7 months ago

              The cooks made a statement about fruit salads, not salads in general. It is not under contention that caprese is a salad and includes tomatoes. It’s also not a fruit salad.

              Well duh, it’s because you made an error, you made the cook say it for some inexplicable reason in your thought experiment and I’m pointing it out to you.

              • barsoap@lemm.ee
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                7 months ago

                The statement of the cooks, “these are fruits, we can turn them into fruit salad” is perfectly accurate. There’s no error in there. In my example it’s the botanists which make the mistake by widening the definition of “fruit” without double-checking whether that widening changes their understanding of “fruit salad” to become something different from what the cooks were saying.

                • carl_marks[use name]@lemmy.ml
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                  7 months ago

                  In my example it’s the botanists which make the mistake by widening the definition of “fruit” without double-checking whether that widening changes their understanding of “fruit salad” to become something different from what the cooks were saying.

                  Indeed, you made the thought experiment and build this error into it (aka Strawman). I corrected the conversation to show how to correctly apply widening and narrowing in regards to “fruit salads”

                  • barsoap@lemm.ee
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                    7 months ago

                    I corrected the conversation to show how to correctly apply widening and narrowing in regards to “fruit salads”

                    What you should’ve done instead is apply it to Engels’s widening of the term “authority” to mean things that don’t fit into a fruit salad, any more.