The American media loves saying that, but does it really have a right to exist? Does an apartheid colonizing regime have the right to exist in someone else’s land?
The point is… It doesn’t matter now…most of the islamic world except Iran has forgotten their brethren and most of big powers are doing lip service for palestine sympathy. I mean we can bark how much we can… It doesn’t matter to Israel itself. Israel has absorbed most of palestine state and in few years they will absorb more and will erase the historical memory of any Palestinian state. Most Palestinians will flee to Jordon or Lebanon or will become a 2nd class citizen. The hard truth is how much we say occasionally that we are fighting for Palestine the state got finished when Egypt did it’s accords with US and most of Islamic world along with USSR failed to intervene when Israel broke the UN partition plan. The one thing we can try is to change the internal politics of Israel to become a secular country instead of being this apartheid entity but that too requires many adjustments in the world political movement. Right wing jewish lobby is strong in the US and in Europe and they tow the genocidal apartheid line of Israel. It’s sad to see a state sponsored genocide and silence of the world media but sadly it was all over when USSR collapsed. It will take hundreds of years to undo the harm done.
Arguing that there’s not much to be done is not that useful. There’s always something to be done. The South African apartheid lasted for decades, but it was eventually over too.
Bro, you are forgetting something in the equation. USSR was there and they intervened in every part of the globe with good faith. China’s policy is non interventionist and Russia doesn’t care truth to be told. South Africa didn’t have nukes… Israel has it.
Russia doesn’t have to care, neither does China, what is changing is that the west is becoming weaker, due to the actions of Russia and the growth of Chinese economic power and diplomacy, the Saudi-Iran deal being a great example of this. Western support is the primary root of Israel’s power, and in a multipolar world that support will wane. This doomerism that nothing can be done is only under the assumption that Israel will remain backed by superpowers forever.
Also just as a side note, South Africa did actually have nukes, up until the 90s. They collaborated with none other than Israel to develop them too, as it happens.
West is not weak , its actually a false belief started by westoid right wingers and Russia’s Lavrov. The multipolar world consist of fascist to non interventionist countries , I mean I don’t expect Lula and India’s Modi to speak about Palestinian cause or do anything about it . US has 800 bases and immense military prowess , it will take decades for west to plunge into recession and never recover. 2ndly , I request foreign comrades to walk to the talk , what so called western left have achieved for Palestine ? Absolutely nothing. only Jeremy Corbyn spoke about it and he was ejected from mainstream labour party . That’s all you folks can do. I am not a doomer , I am a practical man , practically you comrades can cry a lot here or sing about Palestine but that won’t change the reality which Palestine state is finished and its people in Gaza strip are living in an immense blockade for decades. And don’t trust Saudi Arabia for Palestine , one day they went for BRICS and the next day they went for India , middle east corridor to appease US.
When did I bring up the “Western Left”? You assume that I’m some sort of champagne socialist that parrots what I hear on the internet? I have been to the region and spoken to Palestinians myself, don’t delude yourself into thinking its anywhere near “finished” for them. I don’t care what the west says, nor what Lavrov says, I simply stand with the Palestinians, and if they say that its not over, then it isn’t fucking over. You can say something is “practical” or not based on whatever your own concept of the word is. Is it practical to allow the genocidal regime in occupied Palestine to keep doing what they’re doing? Maybe you say yes, maybe most non Palestinians will say yes, but I don’t care what most people say, because it sure a hell is not practical for Palestine, thats where I take my cue.
“Is it practical to allow the genocidal regime in occupied Palestine to keep doing what they’re doing? Maybe you say yes,”- haha , I didn’t say i don’t stand with them , It is just you accused me of Doomerism , I said I am not a doomer but I specifically don’t believe in Idealism. Palestinains are still there but the matter of the fact with your support too , Israel will evict them , its going to happen and its not that I don’t support them , its the fact that westerners are mainly silent on this issue , global south is weak and careless including China, Islamic countries don’t care except Iran . Without external help Israel can’t be defeated that’s an absolute fact. few commies in Lemmy won’t change the reality on ground , same goes with BDS movement .
Then what exactly do you mean by calling yourself a “practical man”? If all you’re really doing is saying “something bad is likely to happen”, thats one thing, but resigning yourself to that and saying “It does not matter now” is absolutely doomerism, try telling this to a Palestinian and see what happens. No Palestinian benefits from random commies on lemmy saying shit online, but they certainly don’t benefit any more from people claiming they’re a lost cause because their oppressor has nukes.
Shoulda just busted a nug off Austria.
Europe and west in general has made it very clear it will absolutely not tolerate Jews on the subcontinent. Trying to carve up a little Ashkenaz in Austria would just see another slaughter. In fact that is one of the reasons I suspect the Israel project was supported back then - just ship them off all to somewhere out of sight and out of mind.
That shouldn’t be the Palestinians’ problem. If anything, the mingled forces of FIVE-EYES, NATO, and what have you should have sacked the fuck up and carved off some of their own; and as they didn’t, I consider every single nation that fought for the Allies and still exists culpable for this aberration of colonialism. Instead, global crackery condemned Palestine to die so they wouldn’t have to bother; and you wonder why I don’t give the first fuck about white tears?
By that logic does America deserve to exist?
No
The “state of Israel” has no right in Palestine, never had any right in Palestine and never can have any right in Palestine. Apartheid and imperialism are inherently illegitimate systems and the Zionist entity occupying Palestine has as little right to exist as did Rhodesia, Belgian Congo or apartheid South Africa.
Not only does the “state of Israel” have no right to exist, it’s continued existence is an affront to the right of everyone living in Palestine, regardless of religion or ethnicity, to live in peace and dignity.
If the Brits wanted Israel to exist so bad they should’ve offered up England.
No
It really doesn’t. Neither does Amerika for that matter; but the settlers would never accept that as an answer.
So what’s your solution to this issue?
Decolonization and mandatory re-education of settler-descent persons is really the only sane answer. I could be saying a half-dozen more overtly ghoulish things; but the first step of least harm is a ceding of power and privilege from the colonizers to the colonized, and education as to the fuckery that this country-- and as a result, Israel-- perpetuated to come into existence, and why what they did is an aberration.
ceding of power and privilege from the colonizers to the colonized
How do you envision this?
They can either give it up peacefully, or we can get into some Greenwood, into some Watts shit again. Would I rather see a ‘peaceful transition of power’ the way the crackers think their ‘democracy’ works? Of course. Am I really that naive, though? Hell fuckin’ no. I might’ve been born at night; but it sure as hell wasn’t last night, and when I balance out my scales, the weight of a settler life does not mean HALF as much to me as a life of one colonized.
So in the face of that, and a country in which we cannot live with these crackers, cannot be safe around these crackers, cannot find the cultures, practices, and names that were stolen from us by these crackers, and cannot pursue our own self-determination around these crackers, what do you propose we do? Just sit here, lookin stupid, letting these crackers keep exploiting us, raping us, thieving from us, incarcerating us without cause, and eventually killing us?
They can either give it up peacefully, or we can get into some Greenwood, into some Tulsa shit again, but flipped
They who? Capitalists? Politicians? Every white person, going by the poorly defined US definition of white?
By this point you might think I’m some lemmy-tier debate pervert, hampering endlessly for trolling. That is not the case. I’m trying to make sense of what the comrades over at the core envision their future struggles to be, because you know this is coming eventually over to my periphery.
deleted by creator
Part of me genuinely does. The only reason I’m still humoring this conversation is because I recognize your username and have seen you about on this fed before.
I see a future in which we have to fight against all whiteness. In which the current-day clarion calls of the politicians and capitalist elites toward the populace to rally 'round in protection of whiteness itself are heeded in full. Every time you hear a casual “slava ukraini” in the west, you are hearing the reaffirmation of solidarity with global whiteness. They’ve chosen their side and their praxis.
“When Zelensky, Biden, Macron, talk about “common European values,” Africans and all non-European peoples understand its real meaning. It is a call for white Western solidarity in response to the global shift of power away from the West. It is essentially an appeal to support white supremacy through the maintenance of white material power that is based on the extractivist, parasitic relationship between the “West” and the rest of us.” – Ajamu Baraka
They’ve started imprisoning our forefront activists again in attempts to shut us up, looking at what’s been done to the Uhuru 3, and the RICO charges filed against anti-Cop City protesters. They’ve already started, and the “White Lives Matter” movements are gaining steam hand-in-hand with the Banderites nourished by the Democrats. This will not end cleanly, and frankly, I’d say it lost the chance to end cleanly years ago.
Just like it has for Palestine.
Who is included in the colonized and colonist categories in this sense? All “white” people? All white passing people no matter background? Recent (last 50 years) migrants of all races?
What would the differentiation be, and what is the line in the sand? This doesn’t seem to be nearly as cut and dry as “Isreali vs Palestinian”.
The differentiation is “can we trace your geneaology up to a slave owner, or further up to the pilgrim ships”. There’d need to be a party apparatus for this sort of records-checking; but I imagine in this day and age, there’s likely a technological solution for this that I’m not immediately landing on. Beyond that, I’m not above the idea of re-educating anyone who’s ever flagged themselves “Caucasian” on a federal census; but the priorities are ‘do you have slave-owner in your blood’.
That does seem like a good criteria, but that is an extremely small and limited amount of people. Slave owners were by far concentrated in the South, and only the ultra-wealthy could afford to own slaves to begin with. It was only a 1-2 percent of people owning 95%+ of all slaves. As most free people in the South, white or black, were themselves near destitute and extremely poor.
Plus records of that would be difficult to work with, yes a direct relative would be an easy find, but we would go after someone for their great great great great great uncle twice removed owning slaves?
Also the Caucasian label is itself extremely tenuous, as you would catch the decent majority of slavs, turks, some arabs, Romani, and a whole hell of a lot of bizarre and “non-white” groups by going after the Caucasian label.
Plus then you run into the problem of a decent chunk of people being mixed, meaning no single label would work well for them, or you could have a family where one partner could have had a slave owning ancestor, while their partner had a ancestor who was a slave, and one of their children is extremely dark, while one of their siblings could be much lighter, and then another that’s white as snow. There would be an absurd amount of unique scenarios you would have to grapple with, this is just one.
Is it such a sin to want to see those who self-identify a certain way educated on the baggage they’ve associated themselves with? You raise fair points on the concept of mixed families; but beyond that, while self-identification is fine and all, I see a use case for the education.
But its not really “self-identification”, its not really a personal choice is it? You can’t just self-identify as another ethnicity, race, or background, and most people don’t give theirs a second thought.
Education should just be done overall. I just don’t see the point in otherizing and targeting certain groups on factors such as race, sexuality, ethnicity, or background, barring other overt reasons. I’m definitely not defending racist white chuds and they’re the first ones that could use reeducation, but it just feels like belief and views should be a primary concern. I’ve met plenty of gusanos, extremely out of touch extremely wealthy minorities, and people with racist families who grew beyond that. It just feels the main separator is class and education more then anything.
Again, going back to it, dividing a clean cut colonizer and colonized just seems to be near impossible in the United States. It feels like other factors should be taken into account first.
That does seem like a good criteria, but that is an extremely small and limited amount of people. Slave owners were by far concentrated in the South, and only the ultra-wealthy could afford to own slaves to begin with. It was only a 1-2 percent of people owning 95%+ of all slaves. As most free people in the South, white or black, were themselves near destitute and extremely poor.
people rented slaves, and for the purposes of this discussion, that should be at least partial credit for “owning”
Sure, but how in the world would you ever prove that? I doubt less then 1 percent of the receipts from those transactions survived.
Give them a bit of germanny as reparations for the holocaust and move them there.
And would that not count as settler colonialism?
Most of em were originall from there yidish is a germanic language after all. And it would be more justified since we can all agree germany did the holocaust. And the jews need their own state to protect themselves from future instances of that. So if the germans broke it they should fix it. Way should the palestinians pay for the duck?
This solution may have been sensible in 1945, for reasons you have described. But now? How many people in Israel even speak Yiddish?
Makes more sense than settling them in the middle east.
They are an european (germanic) people and they were persecuted by europeans(mainly germans) so it should fall to europeans to decide the compensation not to middle easterners.
