The situation is actually quite simple.
If you want Palestine to survive, your best bet is to vote Biden.
Literally every other option will only lower their chances. You can’t have everything you want, welcome to life.
“Genocide Joe” doesn’t matter when the other option is Turbo Genocide Donny.
So if there is anyone who tries to convince you to not vote Biden, they either want Palestine to die, or want to cause chaos in your country. Which is most likely a Russian bot.
You’re voting Genocide Joe. Gotcha. You support genocide. Gotcha. Just admit you want genocide already!
As a real American of color red blood born into the Ohio oblast of the American Union, I agree!
Hi I’m your local Russian bot, if genocide is gonna occur either way and biden hasn’t done anything about it past some political posturing then you might as well punish biden with the possibility of setting a precedence moving forward that supporting genocide won’t get you re elected.
Doesn’t matter if you make this the last election we ever have now does it
this is the wildest lie I have ever seen.
They actually don’t give a shit about Palestine because they’re Right-wingers posing as leftists.
This conspiracy theory is even less plausible than the, “Everyone who disagrees with me is a secret agent” one.
I’ve seen right-wingers pretending to be leftists before and if you can’t get them to drop the act and start screaming racial slurs within 5 minutes, that’s on you.
I get paid by the US government to shitpost
I did voter drives in 2016 and 2020 The people I met say the same things. I am in now way saying that voter interference is not a thing. Encouraging voter apathy is a easy way to influence American elections.
Nothing to do with rigged elections or propaganda. People are realizing that neither party represents the people. It’s a fact.
Absolutely, this is a huge opportunity for the Green party to grow
That’s pretty misleading because it depends on what you mean by “the people”. And the more complicated, less-emotionally satisfying reality is that both candidates were essentially chosen by different groups of “the people” in contested primary elections in 2016 and 2020. The system is inefficient and in fact designed to uphold the status quo, but still allows people to change it. And trying to change it by voting is a far more effective strategy than not participating and hoping the extremely status-quo biased corporate media somehow gives you attention and takes your side as a result.
It’s actually quite simple.
67% of the US public want the government to call for a ceasefire.
That’s it. Neither party will do it, therefore neither represents the people. Talk all you want about primaries or whatever, but the reality is that neither party represents the people on this.
It’s not up for debate.
That’s it. Neither party will do it, therefore neither represents the people.
Except that’s not actually true. There’s one party that’s unanimously against a ceasefire, and one party that’s split. If more people voted for the party that’s partly for a ceasefire, maybe the pro-ceasefire side would get a majority in government. Problem is, of the people that want a ceasefire, very few vote or they protest vote instead of picking people who can actually move the needle.
deleted by creator
This is what the meme is about, people. This is the enemy.
Would you like to put out the house fire while on fire yourself, or not?
Dainbramage in the wild, folks.
Or, you can call out both parties for being shit, while still voting for the one that’s slightly less shit. Crazy, I know.
Sure, but these comments are trying to get people to not vote at all.
If Lemmy comments convince you not to vote, you weren’t going to vote to begin with.
Slightly??? Come on man.
Both parties are shit. I’m a progressive 🤷
My question still stands, if you’ll take the effort to re-read.
It depends. If it’s my house, and I live alone? I’ll put myself out first. If my wife and cats are still in the house? I’m going to work on putting the house fire out first.
I’m a middle aged, white, het-, cis-male. I like guns–I like guns a lot–and I know the bible far, far better than almost all evangelicals. If Trump wins, I’ll be fine. I can keep my mouth shut for four years–or however long he’s alive, or his dynasty is in power–and at least get by. My friends that are LGBTQ+, non-white, are women of child-bearing age, or cant’s reasonably pass as christian? They’ll be fucked. So I’m not voting for me, I’m voting for them.
I appreciate your answer, just pointing out that it’s hard to help others if you yourself are experiencing calamity, even potentially.
You may pass for the time being, but there will be a point where you need to say something or so something to protect one of those friends, and the facade falls.
Am I happy with Biden? Nope. But I’m definitely not voting for the cheatin’ Cheeto, or anyone even tangentially related.
Neither party representing the people is very very different then saying both parties are equally damaging.
When Martin Luther King Jr said the white moderate was the biggest stumbling block of progressive politics he meant shit like this That favors order over Justice.
When it said that you cut a liberal in a fascist bleeds they mean you.
I’m an American that lives in a very blue state. I will be voting third party this election because my state and my vote will end up going to the blue team anyway. What I know is that if a third party gets 5% of the vote they get funding in the next round. I don’t know about all you guys, but I am tired of constantly picking the lesser evil and having every election I participate in be the most important election of our lifetime (so far
But sure Just say I’m a Russian bot. I’m sure that won’t distance people even further away from your politics.
…you realize MLK was talking about people like you that would rather throw your hands up and do nothing than help, right?
If Trump wins, minorities and LGBT folks are in danger. That’s on you. In the same way that white moderates are critiqued for sitting around and doing nothing in the civil rights era, people who are sitting around and doing nothing against the rise of fascism in that way because they don’t want to take the time to focus on who’s in danger are to blame. You are the modern white moderate.
Amazing, you really think that don’t you.
I’m not doing nothing. I’m in a non-swing state that’ll go Blue no matter what I do. So I’m trying to organize people to vote third party so we can actually get a party that represents the people in. What are you doing??
It wouldn’t be on me because I know how the electoral college works and I know that my vote will go to the Dems regardless because I’m in Maryland, it’ll be blue as f*** regardless of what I voted for. If you want to spend money, I will bet you any amount of money you would like. That Maryland will be blue and all of its votes will go to Biden. Honestly that second paragraph’s Is just protection man. If you are actually doing something or just confused than Good luck to you.
Are you voting for Bobby Jr, Cornel or Jill?
Because Bobby’s the only one who might get 5%. Would that be saying you are okay with his policies?
What are you going to do in the next election cycle to make sure the nominees align closer to your values?
For me, it’ll probably come down to Dr. Cornel West or Claudia de lacruz. I would vote for Jill Stein if those two aren’t viable at time of voting. All three of these candidates are closer to my values than any of the party nominees I’ve seen in my lifetime.
Rfk seems to have more in common with Republicans than anyone else and they’re my least favorite. I just generally find him kind of gross and grifty
If the nominee doesn’t align with my values in the next election, I will continue to do the what I am now. pushing people to vote for third party politicians that do align with their values in non-swing State situations.
Dr. Cornel West or Claudia de lacruz. I would vote for Jill Stein
Are any of those polling over 1%?
That’s a silly question.
That’s like if you were talking about building a dog house and I asked you “How much of it’s done already?” And when you said not that much I could say. Well it’s never going to get done then. See how that’s silly?
No, I asked if any of them are polling over 5%.
It’s a question with an answer, just maybe not an answer you would like.
So do you want to answer the question or do you want to deflect from the answer?
Actually, you didn’t ask that you asked if any of them are polling over 1%.
Re-read your own comment.
I’m not going to waste my time with you anymore ✌🏾
I obviously hit the wrong number but you still can’t answer the question.
Genuine question. If you lived in a swing state for this election, who would you vote for?
Biden
Cool cool cool. I also would rather vote 3rd party, but I’m in a swing state so. Yeah.
Just want to say this is the only sane take. I am donating and supporting the Green party in hopes of 5%, then we’ll see the Dems actually get off their ass and give some scraps to the struggling working class of this country.
Thank you, comrade.
I will be voting for Claudia Taylor Cruz or Dr. Cornell West myself, but in the event I can’t get one of those, Jill Stein (green party) would be my next pick. 👈😎
That’s because you have the privilege of living in a blue state and our votes going towards an electoral college rather than popular vote in most cases. I voted Green Party before seeing her in the Russian op photo. National doesn’t matter as much as local votes do
Exactly if you live in a non-swing state like me that is either solid red or blue and does not change then vote third party. If you live in a swing state then vote for the lesser of two evils.
It’s really simple
You should open with this
If you live in a red state vote blue so that there’s that tiny 1%chance that enough people are pissed off that blue wins by a few votes
I mean you could, but even if you’re successful, you end up in the same situation we are in now where we’re deciding between the lesser of two evils every election.
If you follow my plan instead, over time, third parties will gain more support allowing us to pick something other than the lesser of two evils.
Do you get what I’m saying?
They are willfully not following you.
Donate and campaign for your local ranked choice voting groups https://fairvote.org/ - if you aren’t engaged in changing the system, you should be.
Until we have change like this, I’m still voting for the person who sucks the least, because I know only one of the two mainstream candidates will win.
I already am a part of a local organization for ranked choice voting. That’s great advice. People should definitely do this. It would make everything so much better! 👈😎
From your last sentence, I’m assuming where you vote is in contention and since that’s the case, I think you’re right. I do want to say if you’re like me living in a non-swing state that is always going to go for the same party. Then have a little fun with a third party vote.
Welcome comrade bot. We are not quite legion but if we can get these Liberal airbags to stop voting for genocide politicians maybe we can actual have change. Lol remember Obama and “Change”.
I remember when he kept his campaign promise to close Guantanamo Bay and totally gave us universal health care and not some right-wing idea from the heritage foundation. He rebranded as Obamacare.
Good to know there are people who pay attention to politics here. Thanks Comrade 👈😎🛠️
Let’s not forget the increased drone strikes, continuing two wars (yes, they were started by the worse party but he helped funnel 100s of billions into war), assault on privacy and civil liberties.
Amen!
Did you ever see the cliff of him trying to tell the people Flint Michigan that their water wasn’t poisoned with lead and pretending the drink of glass of tap water in front of them. It wasn’t until I saw that that I realized that dude was just a puppet.
I just had to look it up. I missed that when it happened originally. He was always good for showmanship.
It is naive to believe that the empire was built without the support of its citizens, they know that all wealth they enjoy comes from their and their allies imperialism around the world, so murdering brown people around is just a collateral. and if you bring that up you are either a bot or lack enough intellect to understand the need for western imperialism around the world.
This is a cool post.
Still won’t make me vote for genocide. Please give me a candidate to vote for.
Not casting your vote for Biden is equal to casting half a vote to Trump, who will ensure there is not question left whether it actually qualifies as genocide or not. It will be horrible. Please vote Biden. Lesser evil means less evil.
And that candidate will lose, republicans will win, and give free reign to Netyanyahoo.
Good job mate. Important thing is you didn’t let small things like nuance or reality get in the way of riding the high horse.
Dems have people like Sanders and AOC openly voicing their disgust over Israel’s genocide. Can’t see any GOP member saying that.
Dude supports abortion but doesn’t want the state to pay for abortions… So basically low income people are fucked and should give birth to a child they can’t afford to have. He should kill himself.
libertarians care about liberty until you say that government shouldn’t privatize social services then suddenly they get super authoritarian
Dude supports abortion but doesn’t want the state to pay for abortions…
He’s a libertarian
Oh fuck, you don’t say!!
Wow, ending qualified immunity?
Didn’t think I’d ever see a candidate with that stance!
Just write in your own name and you’ll match 100% of what you want and have the same chance at actually being elected.
Exciting!
I like a lot of his positions, but the isolationism, especially in regards to Ukraine is a no-go to me
That’s a fair point, I don’t like him lumping support for Ukraine in with support for Israel.
He does go on to state that he seeks peace without rewarding the “aggressing party”. Idk exactly what that means, so he gets a C- from me on foreign policy for the time being.
As a foreigner I never understood the novote sentiment in the US. You aren’t voting for either candidate because you dislike them, so who would you actually vote for? AOC? RFK Jr? Bernie? Does your ideal candidate even exist in reality yet? All a no vote does is take away your own rights in your country, while the rest of the world moves on without you.
For what it’s worth, both parties can be trash but one party actually can be shamed to doing the right thing once in a while.
I cannot blame people for feeling jaded or disillusioned. Would we vote for Bernie? We certainly would’ve if the DNC didn’t provably sabotage his campaign. And I cannot ignore that Biden is old and deeply unpopular among leftists, yet our party refuses to offer up a better choice because they’re counting on “the devil you know” to carry him through. Who could feel enthusiastic about that? I think the hope is that the DNC will learn some kind of lesson if he loses, though I know they won’t. The trend of “reduce harm now, actually improve things later” has been going on for a long time. When is “later”? What up and coming voice on the democratic side do we have to look forward to?
I have to vote, because my number one priority is trans rights and there’s only one party that will do anything to protect that, but I don’t do it happily. I understand too that the “vote blue no matter who” crowd has similar pressing concerns that require harm reduction. But I dislike the characterization of anyone who feels apathetic about the upcoming election as idiots or Russian bots. When you’re only voting against a candidate, it’s hard to feel motivated.
Yeah I see your point. Personally I think voting rights are important, especially in world history, and seeing people throw that away - to risk the country’s future on making a statement - irks me a little. The most irresponsible way to make yourself heard, with the worst possible consequences. People in China and Russia don’t even get a choice ffs. Plus it feels like Americans have had a four year reminder to learn this lesson already.
But I see how this feels shitty all around. I just hope people talk to one another and vote with their fellow countrymen in mind.
Non voters are either children or morons.
Rational adults realise that this is the system and you have to operate inside of it despite the compromises.
Now, you want to start changing the system, start a grassroots campaign, get into politics to change the system, more power to you!
But sitting on your ass crying about both sides while doing nothing, you are simply an immature moron.
For what it’s worth, both parties can be trash but one party actually can be shamed to doing the right thing once in a while.
People need to dig a hole and put their expectations of government in that hole for them to be low enough. Once they do that they’ll be less disillusioned and won’t think voting is a waste.
Voting is only a waste in authoritarian countries like China, Russia and North Korea.
Yes, but if you tell folks that they’re gonna get a puppy if they vote and they get a sticker with a dog on it they’ll be like “Well that was a lie.”
Governments move slow, and make stupid decisions all the time. The line between voting for something and getting that thing is convoluted, slow, and fraught with peril. It’s not going to happen overnight. Hell, it won’t happen in a decade, assuming it even happens at all.
If people knew that it takes over 30 years to maybe get something that the vast majority of people want they won’t give up on voting after a couple times, and will do what I do: Vote regularly and expect nothing.
I’m with you. I love everything George Carlin did, except for his anti vote bits. Somehow voting is supposed to make you compliant in the current going on in government, is the argument.
The only way to change things is too consistently vote until the baby boomers are thinned out of their electoral advantage.
Carlin isn’t wrong on the crucial parts.
The system is broken and cannot be fixed by voting. It must be dismantled and replaced.
But while we get started on the dismantling and replacing, maybe vote so that the current system doesn’t deteriorate, break down and gets replaced by something worse before you have the chance to bring about meaningful and positive change.
The system is broken and cannot be fixed by voting.
Carlin is fundamentally wrong here, because he starts with the premise that national politics spring out of nothingness. That’s simply not true. In almost all cases, people that are successful at national politics start at a local level. So when you want to change things, you must start locally. That means getting good candidates elected to local offices, and them moving them up to state office, and eventually to national.
Okay, yes, I see what you mean and can agree. Still I believe that this can only bring about meaningful change if it’s part of an activist push for election reform.
The local level is important and easier to manage, because the power brokers, the keys to power are not that much more powerful than you are. But at a certain point the keys to power become way too influential. To reach the top in any party, you have to play by the parties rules and neither one will let you lessen their individual members influence. You would need wide ranging political agreement and cooperation (and good luck with that) or you have to change the game by redistributing power away from big players and back to the people. And that can imho. not be achieved in a highly partisan two-party system.
Or, maybe it can be, but the odds are incredibly stacked against you.
The problem being that a fledgling political organization has to then expend the energy to endorse a candidate outside their party and vote in support of one enemy over another enemy.
Any fledgling political organization that participates in the system in a traditional way is either
a) stupid or b) delusional or c) sacrificing vulnerable peoples actual needs in favor of ideology or d) a false-flag operation designed to weaken the side they are ostensibly closer to
Any meaningful change can only occur outside the standardized channels. Inside the existing structure the math simply demands a two-party-system that will always favor the side that can both form the biggest coalition and dissuade the opposed voters from voting. Both parties have had problems with the coalition forming for a long time, so they try everything to dissuade opposed voters.
If you want meaningful change in the US, find a way to invest your activism not into who people vote for, but into changing how voting works.
First: The “National Popular Vote Interstate Compact” is a band-aid that might help with warding against the worst excesses of far-right ideology, with it in place, it should be easier to ward against the white nationalist power grab and protect vulnerable people.
Second: Electoral reform in favor of ranked choice voting. With this in place, your goal to create viable alternative candidates will be basically met. Suddenly you don’t HAVE to vote for the lesser evil. The math suddenly doesn’t favor a two-party-system anymore.
Third: Implementing the Fair Representation Act to bring about ranked choice voting in then multi member districts. This counteracts gerrymandering and will make the representation much closer match the voters. No more taxation without representation for the plurality of citizens.
Fourth: Some form of true proportional representation. Open or closed list proportional representation would both help with SO many problems the US faces right now, it’s absolutely bonkers.
P.S.: But in the meantime… all these goals are may be more or less opposed by most democrats, but they will never be implemented when the republicans further erode american democracy. So vote democrat if you want to have any chance of bettering circumstances, at all.
Any meaningful change can only occur outside the standardized channels.
So vote democrat if you want to have any chance of bettering circumstances, at all.
🤔
What’s hard to understand? Maintain the current level of badness to not reach worse levels before meaningful change can be achieved.
“I want to change the way voting works” only brings positive change in a future where voting is still a thing.
I don’t see how you expect to get democrats to support voting reform when it goes against their interests and you support them whether they do it or not. That’s the fundamental problem with what you’re saying, you recognize that the current system is dysfunctional, but you’re expecting that system to function well enough to enact the changes necessary to make it functional.
You’re saying you want the people in charge to give up the systems they depend on to maintain their own power, to act in a way that very directly goes against their own interests, and I don’t see what your plan is exactly to force them to do that, beyond asking nicely while giving them full unconditional support.
Who I would vote for would be, for example, the third-party candidate I’m actually voting for.
The democrats can’t be “shamed” into doing the right thing. They might be able to be pressured into doing it, and establishing a credible threat that you’ll withhold your vote if they do something unconcionable is one way of exerting that pressure. They have exactly zero interest in the concerns of people whose votes are guaranteed.
And if they are completely unresponsive regardless, then the only hope of having our concerns listened to is to unseat them, by means of a third party. No longer how unlikely or how long it takes, it’s still more likely than the possibility that Biden randomly starts caring about Palestinians out of the kindness of his heart.
And why do you think dems would be pressured by 3rd party voters instead of just shifting their policies to the right to attract moderates? The third party voters seek a humanitarian leader who doesn’t exist and couldn’t possibly thrive in the current American politcal system. Seriously give me a name for this potential candidate.
Why would the dems concern with people seeking a politician they could never provide? Shifting right has already won them an election with Biden, against the most charismatic Republican politician of the last decade. Either the dems win and nothing happens, or the republicans win and the dems shift right to attract moderates.
the most charismatic Republican politician of the last decade.
Funny how Trump has become “The most charismatic Republican candidate of the last decade.” He was literally supported by Hillary in the “pied piper” strategy because he was supposed to be so easy to beat. I recall the conventional wisdom in 2015 was that the Republicans would have to shift to the center to appeal to Latino voters or they’d be finished because of demographics. Right up to election day, every major media outlet said he had no chance of winning, before he barely squeeked out a win, while losing the popular vote, of course. He’s at negative 12% in terms of net favorability. I guess he still counts as “most charismatic Republican candidate of the last decade” but only because that’s an incredibly low bar.
Either the dems win and nothing happens, or the republicans win and the dems shift right to attract moderates.
Well, the question is how far can they keep shifting right before they start bleeding more voters from the left than they’re attracting from the center? The democrats are right wing and would much rather shift to the center, but just because they managed to barely win against a historically unpopular president in the middle of a botched pandemic doesn’t mean it’s a reliable strategy.
But if they think they can win without the left then they’re welcome to try. I’d just better not hear anybody blaming the left afterwards if they lose.
Cool, so you’re voting for tRump, got it.
Trump is a third-party candidate? Fascinating perspective.
Majority of the politicians are slaves of AIPAC, probably from blackmail material. So none of them are worthy of voting for, much less, holding any political power in any part of the U.S.
Blackmail, or overt threats of harm to their family.
But even if they’re beholden to Israel on one issue, there are still a lot of other issues at stake domestically. So this nonsense about none of them worth voting for is just bullshit propaganda.
Ain’t none of these politicians giving a fk about domestic issues unless it’s to make more laws, taking away rights one crumb at a time.
If you want to give up your voting rights, go ahead. The rest of us will stay in reality where changes to domestic issues happen almost every single day.
Are you going to make me ask you to provide at least three changes to domestic issues in the past week just to prove a point? This isn’t cartoon network… this is reality. Politicians don’t give a chit unless it benefits them and or their handlers.
You can if you want to.
The ones from 2021 - 2023 are better documented though: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_executive_actions_by_Joe_Biden
It is about 1 every 3-4 days.
My dude. Why do you think that laws are written, exactly? Do you think people pull them out of their ass for no reason at all? Or are they just maybe intended to deal with changing issues, whether or not you approve of the law?
Have you ever looked up something along the lines of, “stupid laws in the U.S.” or “stupid laws state by state”?
You’ll be surprised.
Stupid laws almost always had a reason at one time. The reason might not have been good, but it still existed.
I’m aware of one place out in the middle of fucking nowhere, South Carolina, that has a noise ordinance after 11pm. It has a noise ordinance because there’s a very large gun range–several hundred acres–that has occasional night matches. Well, someone that was politically connected moved close to the range, and got pissed that about once a month there was shooting all night. So they got their buddies on the county commissioners to pass an ordinance that said no noise after 11pm. Now those night matches shut down at 11pm on the dot, because the cops are ready and waiting to issue citations to the range owner. In 100 years–if humans are still in existence as a species–no one is going to remember why there’s a dumb law on the books about noise after dark in ass-fuck SC.
Not sure why the “uwu” was necessary, but okay.
Zionist bots in full force to keep their two party system in place.
First of all what the fuck does Zionism have to with it. Keep your conspiracy bullshit. Second of all how do you believe you can personally influence whether or not the first past the post voting system may be replaced?
Isn’t that crazy. Everyone is allowed to scream about Russian bots in order to defend Genocide without any proof and people upvote it to the top.
But pointing out that the biggest Biden apologists are notorious Zionists and actively defended israel committing Genocide the past 7 months triggers all the concern trolls asking for conclusive evidence
I was asking what any of that has to do with the two party system
Oh did you know that you can actually vote for a third party? Cornel West and Jill Stein are great choices.
It’s completely delusional to vote for a third party candidate in the US election system. The chance of winning is 0%. It won’t happen. Absolutely impossible. The only thing it does is strengthen the candidate with the more committed voter base or in other words: the republican candidate.
If you had ranked choice voting or the president was elected by a parliament that is elected by proportional vote like in most of Europe, that wouldn’t be a problem. It’s not like that though. If you vote third party in the US, all you accomplish is making a Trump victory more likely.
Wow it’s almost like Russian bots are directly relevant to the topic of Voter Suppression and there are more reasons to vote for Biden than wanting to perpetuate a genocide. Inconceivable!
That’s crazy, my conspiracy theory would only make sense if there was a giant israeli lobby donating billions of dollars to bribe American politicians so they can keep a two party system going. And we all know that doesn’t exist. But if it did they surely wouldn’t publicly flaunt about it
Yes, Isreal is lobbying the U.S. government and that’s bad. It’s also entirely irrelevant to the discussion.
Are you telling me lobbying is legal in the US?
Say it ain’t so! /s
Unless it’s another country aside from israel of course then it would be highly illegal.
Trump taking israeli money is fine but Trump taking Russian money that would be a huge scandal.
You mean taking money from an ally is different from taking money from an enemy?
Say it ain’t so! /s
“you’re a Zionist! and you’re a Zionist! And you! You’re a Zionist too!”
Thanks for showing up here person that actively defends israel committing Genocide.
You’d do best deleting your post history before proving my point.
I love that the slightest push back to any of your points == “defending genocide”.
You’re so fragile you’ll snap at the slightest breeze.
“What should israel do commit Genocide like they are doing right now?” = slight push back
Also tell me more about how you also think israel is committing Genocide you never seem to confirm that.
You know what? I DO think Israel is committing genocide --or at the least it’s bordering on that in the absence of an official verdict by the ICC.
But I don’t owe anyone my personal position on topics when it’s not the argument that is being discussed. I DONT need to use sophistry and labels to “otherise” every actor on the internet because I’m not a fucking child.
You should try it sometime. It’s people like you who can’t engage faithfully with topics that cause more harm to the Palestinian cause because you enable the IDF by spreading false information that can easily be fact checked. No one takes you seriously any more because you’ve reached your goal of calling everyone Zionists. It’s a method of actively sabotaging the discourse so that no progress can happen. And it’s working really well. World.news is a lovely echo chamber of your ilk just hysterical crying about atrocities while doing absolutely jack shit to move back the needle towards a resolution.
It’s Kony 2012 all over again.
or at the least it’s bordering on that in the absence of an official verdict by the ICC.
Just edit your comment to remove that part and I’ll be really happy.
Kony 2012!
You got the book “Everyone who disagree with me defends genocide” too?
Marvelous.
-
Leftists are abandoning Joe Biden and this will ensure Donald Trump’s victory
-
Actually, Joe Biden is very popular and he’s going to win in a landslide. Anyone who says otherwise is a Russian shill.
Rolling these two ideas in my brain like a pair of baoding balls
They’re called Benoit balls
David Benoit’s Balls
Sorry, I can’t even say it without adding “balls”. Physically impossible.
Where have you heard the second one? I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone say that.
It’s kind of implied by memes like this one. If you suspect any criticism of Biden is coming from Russian disinfo mills, it follows that there is little/no organic/genuine criticism of Biden.
I don’t get that at all.
Those of us trying to get those saying the things in the meme know we need all the votes we can get.
If we knew Biden would win in a landslide, why waste keystrokes?
But you’re stifling Democrats who are criticizing Biden by claiming that they’re all actually Russian bots
Which, actually, is exactly what a Russian bot would do - convince lefty Dems that mainstream Dems are out of touch elitists who don’t care about their concerns and will dismiss any criticism of Biden as foreign interference rather than disagreement with policy choices like genocide support. Which, of course, will cause those lefty dems to resent the Democratic Party and decrease the likelihood they vote for Biden
So you’re doing Russia’s work for them by continuing this line of attack. You need the votes of young people/zoomers/lefties. You lose parts of that vote by acting like their criticisms are foreign disinformation. Which helps Putin.
If a meme like this makes someone who claims to be “left” not vote for the (unfortunate) only person on the ballot that will keep whatever little semblance of democracy we have in tact, then I don’t think they are as “left” as they claim to be.
Then why bother rebutting the type of posts contained in the OP image?
I just personally wouldn’t waste my time. I get that there’s a lot going on, and a lot of it very bad, but at the end of the day, the bigger picture is crystal clear to those of us who actively lived through Trump’s awful years in office.
If a meme is what gets you to vote against yourself, then you were going to do that anyway, just with extra fluff.
But you’re stifling Democrats who are criticizing Biden by claiming that they’re all actually Russian bots
I haven’t personally accused anyone of being a Russian agent and will continue that way.
I’ve simply concentrated on the illogical nature of the arguments seen in the meme. While I continue to be surprised at how hard it is for some to understand first past the post voting systems, I just think those people aren’t bright. Not Russian, necessarily.
Ironically, during the “basket of deplorables” snafu, the left on Reddit were saying things like “if an insult made you vote for Trump, you were probably never voting for Hillary anyway”. And I think that holds true.
Because if you know how FPTP works and you believe one of the two people who are going to win this race is better than the other - you have your vote figured out already.
But if you know you need all the votes you can get, then your strategy should be to acknowledge and assuage the concerns of your base. Your strategy should not be to tell your base to shut up, to call them Russian agents, and to stop publicly talking about how the United States is arming and funding a genocide, for example
Biden has significant weaknesses that need to be acknowledged and addressed. Ideally through policy changes. But if not that, then through significantly better rhetoric than his admin/team/PR agencies are currently using.
Insulting your critics is the worst possible move, especially when their criticisms are real and valid. We’re not talking about people who believe Hunter Biden was the mastermind behind Pizzagate - We’re talking about the majority of registered Democrats who believe that Israel is committing a genocide with American money and bombs. And we’re also talking about the median American family who can no longer afford to keep up with the increases to the cost of living - let alone buy a house for the first time without parental support. These are real concerns and Biden deserves criticism for them - and, ideally, he needs to deliver policy that addresses these concerns
and to stop publicly talking about how the United States is arming and funding a genocide, for example
This right here is why I don’t see value in arguing those facts and just concentrating on the fact that we have 2 real choices and one is clearly better.
There is absolutely nothing I can say to you that will convince you that what’s going on in Gaza isn’t a genocide. It’s literally not worth trying. I’ve seen people say shit like, “You know what we mean, even if we don’t mean literally genocide”. People either just like using the word to mean “murder” or “killing” or actually think there’s a literal genocide happening right now.
Either way, I’d rather just try to get people to see the simple, straightforward logic:
- Either the Dem or Rep nominee will in.
- Thanks to the voting system we’re subject to, if you vote for a 3rd party which better aligns with your ideals, you run a real risk of allowing the worse of #1 to be elected. This is a worse outcome for you and me.
- Given 1 and 2, you’re better off throwing weight behind the better of #1.
No matter what you or anyone else says next, 1 and 2 are true. That should lead you to 3, if you’re a logical person. If it doesn’t lead you there, you either still don’t understand the logic or you’re not all that concerned with his dictatorial comments, what that might mean for women, minorities, atheists, him getting MORE SCOTUS appointments, Ukraine/Russia, etc.
We’re talking about the majority of registered Democrats who believe that Israel is committing a genocide with American money and bombs.
Again, nothing I or anyone else say is going to disabuse those people of that notion. We’ll just be called genocide deniers. Why try?
not really external propaganda and delusional nonvoters go hand in hand
Is it really the criticism of Biden that gets the cries of disinformation, or is it the conclusion that you shouldn’t vote for him that does it?
Those are very different things, and they keep getting mixed together.
I mean, either way? How is it disinformation if I say I’m not going to vote for Biden? If you think everyone who says they aren’t voting for Biden is doing disinfo you are deluding yourself. You don’t have to like it and you are certainly free to argue with people, but don’t pretend that real people haven’t come to their own positions honestly.
Seems like a bit of a straw man, because I wasn’t talking about you or others sharing who they plan to vote for.
I’m talking about all the rhetoric about not voting for Biden because X, but which doesn’t mention that the alternative to Biden’s X is X^2 from the other side. There often isn’t any compare and contrast of the actual choices, just FUD about the one choice while leaving out how much worse the other choice is on the exact same issue.
This whole discussion is about people criticizing Biden. It isn’t “rhetoric” to criticize a sitting president who is actively supporting a genocide. I understand your anxiety about Trump, but I think it is blinding you to the current reality. I know what a piece of shit Trump is, but he isn’t the guy that right now can do something to end this genocide. When I say “fuck Biden for this genocide” and you say “Trump would be worse!” I feel like you’re missing my point completely. I feel like you are just accepting an ongoing genocide because you don’t want to hurt Biden’s electoral chances. He’s the politician, let him figure out how to get elected. He’s got 5 months.
Current politicians can and should be criticized, all of them. Biden most of all, being the President. When American weapons are used to kill innocents, even moreso.
My criticism is how on much of Lemmy this has been extended to “vote for Biden = personally and enthusiastically approve genocide.” You even managed to reach this conclusion in your reply. And that’s how it tends to come up in discussions. People reaching pragmatic conclusions about how best to direct this country with our little meager votes, including reducing genocide and other harm, get met with cries of genocide support. It’s not productive and it shuts down reasonable discussion. And it’s always cries of genocide, not genocide mixed in with another hundred issues. I hope you can see how that makes it seem like a disingenuous talking point. It reminds me of “think of the children” how it uses a very obvious moral stance (genocide bad, or children good) to steamroll any nuance or complexity in the situation.
I agree with the rest of your points though. Like I said, of course he should be criticized. He’s probably the most criticized person on earth, and that’s what he signed up for.
Because the stakes of this election are so very, very high. Trump genuinely and explicitly wants to create a fascist state; it’s borderline incomprehensible that somebody would choose to sit out and let that happen just because they don’t like Biden.
What you and I find incomprehensible are different things.
Just to be entirely clear–are you taking the position that given the choice between (a) the world where you don’t vote and Trump wins and (b) the world where you vote Biden and Trump loses, you would take (a)?
This opinion is all over cable news in the US.
Even the Biden campaign claims that “polling is wrong” and he will win comfortably. The hubris is astounding.
However, to those who would post memes like this, pointing out these types of delusion is tantamount to supporting Trump. It’s an incredibly unhealthy alternative universe to exist in, and the only outcome of doing so will be a crushing Dem defeat come November. I’m not even talking about swing states here - even in New York Biden is only up by 9% now because of his unwavering support of genocide and refusal to improve the path for immigration, among many other shortcomings.
Never seen anyone but the “Biden needs to earn my getting off my couch on election night” leftists say the second one
It’s legitimately possible the left abandons him and he picks up enough conservatives to win anyways.
Assuming we ignore his polling, sure.
Meaning what? I’ve consciously stayed away from election/polling news
Meaning bad news for Biden fans.
Neither of them are popular candidates. But they are in a statistical tie in Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, and Michigan. Although it’s going to be really awkward when Arizona sends a democratic senator while voting for Trump. (And Gallego is not a conservative.)
Neither of them are popular candidates
They’ve each got a hard base of unshakable supporters who are incredibly annoying and deliberately obtuse about the most obvious shit.
Although it’s going to be really awkward when Arizona sends a democratic senator while voting for Trump.
One thing Democrats have managed to do in hotly contested Senate races is to find people who aren’t hateful assholes.
Shame they couldn’t have run Mark Kelly for president.
Yeah. That they do. I don’t think Mark Kelly is interested in the presidency though. And until Arizona Democrats get a replacement lined up we need him where he is.
There is not evidence that conservatives will support him
Trump has the support of party officials but actual conservative voter support is still soft. They really do prefer a Romney type. But they’ll vote Trump over Bernie. A “moderate” like Biden can pull a bunch.
actual conservative voter support is still soft.
That is really not true at all. He is beloved by the base and is exactly what they want
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If you don’t have preferential voting, the only party worth voting for is the one pledging to introduce it. It would solve this bullshit overnight.
Instead, people are fighting over which neoliberal to elect; the slightly more progressive one or the significantly more fascist one. Both of them are going to put the profits of wealthy donors ahead of human lives and neither is a true solution to mounting problems.
Fuck, not only will this not stop the genocide (because Israel doesn’t actually need the weapons in the first place), you won’t even solve the bots and propaganda. Israel has an extremely sophisticated cyberware unit and they’ll just join the Russians trying to get Trump elected.
I’m so weary of this.
You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake seeking a candidate to vote for who reflects your own hopes, dreams, and values and this worthy of your blessing. That’s not how voting works.
You have a two party system. You need to vote for whichever is to the left of the other. That’s it.
If everyone voted for them they would have a mandate to move further left.
The more you moan about neoliberalism the more you muddy the waters for others less well informed than your good self, who will simply not vote at all.
I am, actually, a beautiful and unique snowflake seeking a candidate to vote for who reflects my own hopes, dreams, and values and is worthy of my blessing. Whether you think I’m being reasonable or not is irrelevant, this is what I believe, and if the democrats want the votes of me and people like me, then they better start acting in a way that convinces me they deserve my blessing.
If everyone voted for them they would have a mandate to move further left.
They have precisely zero interest in moving left regardless of how much power they’re given.
You can believe cows milk comes from cartons if you like but that doesn’t make it so.
Imagine electing a dictator because you believe you should be given a better alternative.
The dems have to lean so far to the right just to gather enough votes to have any chance of winning. You could fix that.
Imagine electing a dictator because you believe you should be given a better alternative.
Huh, yeah that is a weird thing to imagine. Has nothing to do with me though.
The dems have to lean so far to the right just to gather enough votes to have any chance of winning. You could fix that.
Lol. The dems lean as far right as they can get away with because that’s how they actually want to govern. And they’re able to get away with it because so many people who fancy themselves “progressive” refuse to hold them accountable or demand anything from them at all. You could fix that.
The dems lean as far right as they can get away with because that’s how they actually want to govern.
That’s not how politics works though? I’m weary of saying the same thing ad-nauseum but basically, if everyone votes on the left then the gop will need to move their policies to the left to have any hope of winning an election, and democrats always need to position themselves to the left of the gop to differentiate themselves. Not surprisingly, if everyone votes on the left then politics will have to move to the left.
It doesn’t matter how you perceive the dems “want to govern”. The gop will push them to the left if everyone votes on the left.
Yes, I suppose that if everyone on the right spontaneously woke up tomorrow as leftists, then that’s what would happen. I don’t really see how a wild scenario like that is relevant to reality.
You don’t need “everyone” to be a leftist, you just need more people to vote on the left than you currently have.
If everyone voted for them they would have a mandate to move further left.
I don’t understand this logic. If they get elected by doing the same thing as always, doesn’t that just encourage them to continue on that trajectory?
No.
The more people vote left, the further left the republican policies need to be to stand any chance of being elected.
Dems will always be to the left of republicans in order to differentiate themselves.
The whole country moves left when everyone votes left. It’s not very complicated.
You’re on the train headed over the edge of a chasm with only two throttle settings: fast and slow. You need to set the throttle to the slowest position. That’s it. You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake, so don’t even try to think about stopping the train.
Look, the democratic system of the United States (and some other countries now) is kind of a historical novelty, and its political and economic power is not an axiom. It can, and will, be lost someday. If blithely shrugging our shoulders and picking the least-worst option election after election isn’t working, well, we can look forward to the plunge off the lip of the chasm, or we can try to change the system.
I understand that many people are satisfied with the “slow” option, or at least in denial, but please accept that many of us are not.
This metaphor is very broken.
It’s more like a car. Vote left and turn away from the chasm.
You’re not going to change the system by not voting- you’ll just end up with the party least compatible with democracy.
Sadly your ideals won’t be represented very well in a trump presidency.
When your car falls into the chasm you don’t suddenly respawn with a new car headed in the right direction - you just end up in the chasm.
No, I think that the metaphor is very apt. I’ve heard the same argument that we must vote for the lesser evil to stop the greater evil for my entire adult life, yet here we are, on the brink of outright authoritarianism. That voting strategy has failed utterly.
How do I vote left? How do I support turning away from the chasm, when anything other than “fast” or “slow” is throwing my vote away?
I understand that many people are satisfied with the “slow” option, or at least in denial, but please accept that many of us are not.
But you should still take a second to set the throttle to the slowest position, right? You don’t have to be satisfied with that as your final solution in order for it to make sense to choose “slow” instead of “off the cliff full speed” or “surprise me.”
I understand the feeling of “I’m fucked no matter what so I don’t care.” Plenty of people are going to take that route, and I’m not going to insult them for being in that position and/or mental state. But for all the debate and discussion on here, Election Day is just the single day where you are given access to that throttle lever on the train, and it only has a few distinct settings.
I personally am always going with the pragmatic choice, because I am stuck on that damn train with everybody else. And I do mean everybody else, not just my fellow Americans. The US potentially going rogue has got to be terrifying for people all around the world.
Yes, I’m not telling people how to vote. I just want to make clear that a vote for Biden is far, far from the ultimate solution.
Blue maga no matter what. I hope Biden helps Israel even more after he wins. Israel has a manifest destiny to the land.
I’m sure he will, but still less than Trump would help. He has gone on record saying “Israel should finish the job”.
So if you want Palestine to survive, you vote for “blue maga”. No other option.
If only Biden and the Democrats were more like Trump and the conservatives when it came to Israel.
I see, so you are just a Zionist.
Nobody has the right to a place. Especially not a
religious groupcult.Have a nice day.
You’re trying way too hard my man.
Hey, fellow Russian agents of lemmy, does anybody wanna form a union?
These working conditions are shit. We have to deal with insufferable liberals repeating the same pro-genocide arguments over and over. Yeah yeah, if we try to strike they could send us all to the front, but tell me honestly - can you really say you fear death after interacting with “vote blue no matter who” people all day?
Honestly, this whole thing seems like a waste of time. How are we supposed to convince Americans to oppose genocide, especially when the victims aren’t even white? Like, come on, they didn’t have a problem when their government was slaughtering hundreds of thousands of people in Iraq and Afghanistan, they’re not gonna suddenly turn into moral actors just because we say the right set of words. When in history have these people ever cared how many foreigners die because of their government’s actions?
In conclusion we deserve a raise if we’re going to keep dealing with these people and if our bosses decide to shut the whole thing down in response, that’s probably for the best because frankly this whole “convince Americans to oppose genocide” thing seems like a complete waste of time.
I’m an American who opposes genocide. What is the best use of my vote in November to reduce genocide in the world?
The best use of your vote in terms of stopping genocide would be to vote for someone who doesn’t support genocide.
I’m looking at this imaginary November ballot and the choices are:
- status quo
- way MORE genocide, and
- “other” where I can write a note that nobody will read.
I can advocate, vote for better people in primaries, and stuff like that, but I cannot change the choices on the ballot.
Good thing option 3 exists so you have an option to oppose genocide without changing what’s on the ballot.
Is it morally correct to effectively give option 2 (MORE genocide) half a vote just so that I can voice my objections to the status quo? I’m not thrilled with the idea of asking other people to die so that I can avoid voting for an imperfect candidate.
No. I’m confused, what country do you live in that has half-votes? I’ve never heard of that.
You should give 100% of your vote (votes?) to the non-genocide option. Do not give any percentage of your vote to either pro-genocide option. This isn’t that complicated.
Yeah it just sounds so simple. Almost misleadingly so!
And I don’t believe you need the effective half vote thing explained to you.
I plan to use my vote to actually reduce and/or prevent genocide and other bad things as much as I can. Like real effects in the real world. If I vote for a third party candidate that stands on firmer moral ground (and who will never have to actually make those decisions), and that choice helps in any small way to get Trump elected, then there are many more people who will suffer and die. It is for those people that I can step outside the realm of idealism and vote for the lesser evil. Because like I saw in another comment, choosing the lesser evil does mean less evil in the world.
I don’t have to be happy about it or excited to do it. But when looking at the practical cause and effect of the voting choices, I only see one ethical option for myself.
Hey, just a heads up, those write ins and third party votes get counted and when parties are planning their platforms they look at how many third party votes they could pick up.
Alright, everyone over 35, and born in America, just write your own name on the ballot. Sound good?
That’s not what I meant when I said to support third party
It might as well be.
It was a joke.
So is this election
