It’s kind of implied by memes like this one. If you suspect any criticism of Biden is coming from Russian disinfo mills, it follows that there is little/no organic/genuine criticism of Biden.
I mean, either way? How is it disinformation if I say I’m not going to vote for Biden? If you think everyone who says they aren’t voting for Biden is doing disinfo you are deluding yourself. You don’t have to like it and you are certainly free to argue with people, but don’t pretend that real people haven’t come to their own positions honestly.
Because the stakes of this election are so very, very high. Trump genuinely and explicitly wants to create a fascist state; it’s borderline incomprehensible that somebody would choose to sit out and let that happen just because they don’t like Biden.
Just to be entirely clear–are you taking the position that given the choice between (a) the world where you don’t vote and Trump wins and (b) the world where you vote Biden and Trump loses, you would take (a)?
Just to be entirely clear-- real people are dying right now because of things Biden could directly control. Trump has nothing to do with that. Biden has a crackerjack team of experts that are obviously doing political calculations that currently don’t require my vote for him to win. I wouldn’t stress about it if I were you.
Seems like a bit of a straw man, because I wasn’t talking about you or others sharing who they plan to vote for.
I’m talking about all the rhetoric about not voting for Biden because X, but which doesn’t mention that the alternative to Biden’s X is X^2 from the other side. There often isn’t any compare and contrast of the actual choices, just FUD about the one choice while leaving out how much worse the other choice is on the exact same issue.
This whole discussion is about people criticizing Biden. It isn’t “rhetoric” to criticize a sitting president who is actively supporting a genocide. I understand your anxiety about Trump, but I think it is blinding you to the current reality. I know what a piece of shit Trump is, but he isn’t the guy that right now can do something to end this genocide. When I say “fuck Biden for this genocide” and you say “Trump would be worse!” I feel like you’re missing my point completely. I feel like you are just accepting an ongoing genocide because you don’t want to hurt Biden’s electoral chances. He’s the politician, let him figure out how to get elected. He’s got 5 months.
Current politicians can and should be criticized, all of them. Biden most of all, being the President. When American weapons are used to kill innocents, even moreso.
My criticism is how on much of Lemmy this has been extended to “vote for Biden = personally and enthusiastically approve genocide.” You even managed to reach this conclusion in your reply. And that’s how it tends to come up in discussions. People reaching pragmatic conclusions about how best to direct this country with our little meager votes, including reducing genocide and other harm, get met with cries of genocide support. It’s not productive and it shuts down reasonable discussion. And it’s always cries of genocide, not genocide mixed in with another hundred issues. I hope you can see how that makes it seem like a disingenuous talking point. It reminds me of “think of the children” how it uses a very obvious moral stance (genocide bad, or children good) to steamroll any nuance or complexity in the situation.
I agree with the rest of your points though. Like I said, of course he should be criticized. He’s probably the most criticized person on earth, and that’s what he signed up for.
I didn’t say you enthusiastically support genocide, but I did say I feel like you are accepting it. Or rather that the argument that I see constantly on Lemmy “do you think Trump would be better on genocide?” contains in itself an acceptance of genocide. To be clear, I haven’t (and won’t) tell anyone how/whether to vote. I will absolutely represent my own point of view and convictions, including commenting when I see stupid memes like this one.
But you’re stifling Democrats who are criticizing Biden by claiming that they’re all actually Russian bots
Which, actually, is exactly what a Russian bot would do - convince lefty Dems that mainstream Dems are out of touch elitists who don’t care about their concerns and will dismiss any criticism of Biden as foreign interference rather than disagreement with policy choices like genocide support. Which, of course, will cause those lefty dems to resent the Democratic Party and decrease the likelihood they vote for Biden
So you’re doing Russia’s work for them by continuing this line of attack. You need the votes of young people/zoomers/lefties. You lose parts of that vote by acting like their criticisms are foreign disinformation. Which helps Putin.
If a meme like this makes someone who claims to be “left” not vote for the (unfortunate) only person on the ballot that will keep whatever little semblance of democracy we have in tact, then I don’t think they are as “left” as they claim to be.
I just personally wouldn’t waste my time. I get that there’s a lot going on, and a lot of it very bad, but at the end of the day, the bigger picture is crystal clear to those of us who actively lived through Trump’s awful years in office.
If a meme is what gets you to vote against yourself, then you were going to do that anyway, just with extra fluff.
But you’re stifling Democrats who are criticizing Biden by claiming that they’re all actually Russian bots
I haven’t personally accused anyone of being a Russian agent and will continue that way.
I’ve simply concentrated on the illogical nature of the arguments seen in the meme. While I continue to be surprised at how hard it is for some to understand first past the post voting systems, I just think those people aren’t bright. Not Russian, necessarily.
Ironically, during the “basket of deplorables” snafu, the left on Reddit were saying things like “if an insult made you vote for Trump, you were probably never voting for Hillary anyway”. And I think that holds true.
Because if you know how FPTP works and you believe one of the two people who are going to win this race is better than the other - you have your vote figured out already.
But if you know you need all the votes you can get, then your strategy should be to acknowledge and assuage the concerns of your base. Your strategy should not be to tell your base to shut up, to call them Russian agents, and to stop publicly talking about how the United States is arming and funding a genocide, for example
Biden has significant weaknesses that need to be acknowledged and addressed. Ideally through policy changes. But if not that, then through significantly better rhetoric than his admin/team/PR agencies are currently using.
Insulting your critics is the worst possible move, especially when their criticisms are real and valid. We’re not talking about people who believe Hunter Biden was the mastermind behind Pizzagate - We’re talking about the majority of registered Democrats who believe that Israel is committing a genocide with American money and bombs. And we’re also talking about the median American family who can no longer afford to keep up with the increases to the cost of living - let alone buy a house for the first time without parental support. These are real concerns and Biden deserves criticism for them - and, ideally, he needs to deliver policy that addresses these concerns
and to stop publicly talking about how the United States is arming and funding a genocide, for example
This right here is why I don’t see value in arguing those facts and just concentrating on the fact that we have 2 real choices and one is clearly better.
There is absolutely nothing I can say to you that will convince you that what’s going on in Gaza isn’t a genocide. It’s literally not worth trying. I’ve seen people say shit like, “You know what we mean, even if we don’t mean literally genocide”. People either just like using the word to mean “murder” or “killing” or actually think there’s a literal genocide happening right now.
Either way, I’d rather just try to get people to see the simple, straightforward logic:
Either the Dem or Rep nominee will in.
Thanks to the voting system we’re subject to, if you vote for a 3rd party which better aligns with your ideals, you run a real risk of allowing the worse of #1 to be elected. This is a worse outcome for you and me.
Given 1 and 2, you’re better off throwing weight behind the better of #1.
No matter what you or anyone else says next, 1 and 2 are true. That should lead you to 3, if you’re a logical person. If it doesn’t lead you there, you either still don’t understand the logic or you’re not all that concerned with his dictatorial comments, what that might mean for women, minorities, atheists, him getting MORE SCOTUS appointments, Ukraine/Russia, etc.
We’re talking about the majority of registered Democrats who believe that Israel is committing a genocide with American money and bombs.
Again, nothing I or anyone else say is going to disabuse those people of that notion. We’ll just be called genocide deniers. Why try?
Even the Biden campaign claims that “polling is wrong” and he will win comfortably. The hubris is astounding.
However, to those who would post memes like this, pointing out these types of delusion is tantamount to supporting Trump. It’s an incredibly unhealthy alternative universe to exist in, and the only outcome of doing so will be a crushing Dem defeat come November. I’m not even talking about swing states here - even in New York Biden is only up by 9% now because of his unwavering support of genocide and refusal to improve the path for immigration, among many other shortcomings.
Trump has the support of party officials but actual conservative voter support is still soft. They really do prefer a Romney type. But they’ll vote Trump over Bernie. A “moderate” like Biden can pull a bunch.
Neither of them are popular candidates. But they are in a statistical tie in Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, and Michigan. Although it’s going to be really awkward when Arizona sends a democratic senator while voting for Trump. (And Gallego is not a conservative.)
Yeah. That they do. I don’t think Mark Kelly is interested in the presidency though. And until Arizona Democrats get a replacement lined up we need him where he is.
Leftists are abandoning Joe Biden and this will ensure Donald Trump’s victory
Actually, Joe Biden is very popular and he’s going to win in a landslide. Anyone who says otherwise is a Russian shill.
Rolling these two ideas in my brain like a pair of baoding balls
They’re called Benoit balls
Sorry, I can’t even say it without adding “balls”. Physically impossible.
David Benoit’s Balls
Never seen anyone but the “Biden needs to earn my getting off my couch on election night” leftists say the second one
Where have you heard the second one? I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone say that.
It’s kind of implied by memes like this one. If you suspect any criticism of Biden is coming from Russian disinfo mills, it follows that there is little/no organic/genuine criticism of Biden.
Is it really the criticism of Biden that gets the cries of disinformation, or is it the conclusion that you shouldn’t vote for him that does it?
Those are very different things, and they keep getting mixed together.
I mean, either way? How is it disinformation if I say I’m not going to vote for Biden? If you think everyone who says they aren’t voting for Biden is doing disinfo you are deluding yourself. You don’t have to like it and you are certainly free to argue with people, but don’t pretend that real people haven’t come to their own positions honestly.
Because the stakes of this election are so very, very high. Trump genuinely and explicitly wants to create a fascist state; it’s borderline incomprehensible that somebody would choose to sit out and let that happen just because they don’t like Biden.
What you and I find incomprehensible are different things.
Just to be entirely clear–are you taking the position that given the choice between (a) the world where you don’t vote and Trump wins and (b) the world where you vote Biden and Trump loses, you would take (a)?
Guy who knows how the electoral college works
Just to be entirely clear-- real people are dying right now because of things Biden could directly control. Trump has nothing to do with that. Biden has a crackerjack team of experts that are obviously doing political calculations that currently don’t require my vote for him to win. I wouldn’t stress about it if I were you.
Seems like a bit of a straw man, because I wasn’t talking about you or others sharing who they plan to vote for.
I’m talking about all the rhetoric about not voting for Biden because X, but which doesn’t mention that the alternative to Biden’s X is X^2 from the other side. There often isn’t any compare and contrast of the actual choices, just FUD about the one choice while leaving out how much worse the other choice is on the exact same issue.
This whole discussion is about people criticizing Biden. It isn’t “rhetoric” to criticize a sitting president who is actively supporting a genocide. I understand your anxiety about Trump, but I think it is blinding you to the current reality. I know what a piece of shit Trump is, but he isn’t the guy that right now can do something to end this genocide. When I say “fuck Biden for this genocide” and you say “Trump would be worse!” I feel like you’re missing my point completely. I feel like you are just accepting an ongoing genocide because you don’t want to hurt Biden’s electoral chances. He’s the politician, let him figure out how to get elected. He’s got 5 months.
Current politicians can and should be criticized, all of them. Biden most of all, being the President. When American weapons are used to kill innocents, even moreso.
My criticism is how on much of Lemmy this has been extended to “vote for Biden = personally and enthusiastically approve genocide.” You even managed to reach this conclusion in your reply. And that’s how it tends to come up in discussions. People reaching pragmatic conclusions about how best to direct this country with our little meager votes, including reducing genocide and other harm, get met with cries of genocide support. It’s not productive and it shuts down reasonable discussion. And it’s always cries of genocide, not genocide mixed in with another hundred issues. I hope you can see how that makes it seem like a disingenuous talking point. It reminds me of “think of the children” how it uses a very obvious moral stance (genocide bad, or children good) to steamroll any nuance or complexity in the situation.
I agree with the rest of your points though. Like I said, of course he should be criticized. He’s probably the most criticized person on earth, and that’s what he signed up for.
I didn’t say you enthusiastically support genocide, but I did say I feel like you are accepting it. Or rather that the argument that I see constantly on Lemmy “do you think Trump would be better on genocide?” contains in itself an acceptance of genocide. To be clear, I haven’t (and won’t) tell anyone how/whether to vote. I will absolutely represent my own point of view and convictions, including commenting when I see stupid memes like this one.
I don’t get that at all.
Those of us trying to get those saying the things in the meme know we need all the votes we can get.
If we knew Biden would win in a landslide, why waste keystrokes?
But you’re stifling Democrats who are criticizing Biden by claiming that they’re all actually Russian bots
Which, actually, is exactly what a Russian bot would do - convince lefty Dems that mainstream Dems are out of touch elitists who don’t care about their concerns and will dismiss any criticism of Biden as foreign interference rather than disagreement with policy choices like genocide support. Which, of course, will cause those lefty dems to resent the Democratic Party and decrease the likelihood they vote for Biden
So you’re doing Russia’s work for them by continuing this line of attack. You need the votes of young people/zoomers/lefties. You lose parts of that vote by acting like their criticisms are foreign disinformation. Which helps Putin.
If a meme like this makes someone who claims to be “left” not vote for the (unfortunate) only person on the ballot that will keep whatever little semblance of democracy we have in tact, then I don’t think they are as “left” as they claim to be.
Then why bother rebutting the type of posts contained in the OP image?
I just personally wouldn’t waste my time. I get that there’s a lot going on, and a lot of it very bad, but at the end of the day, the bigger picture is crystal clear to those of us who actively lived through Trump’s awful years in office.
If a meme is what gets you to vote against yourself, then you were going to do that anyway, just with extra fluff.
I haven’t personally accused anyone of being a Russian agent and will continue that way.
I’ve simply concentrated on the illogical nature of the arguments seen in the meme. While I continue to be surprised at how hard it is for some to understand first past the post voting systems, I just think those people aren’t bright. Not Russian, necessarily.
Ironically, during the “basket of deplorables” snafu, the left on Reddit were saying things like “if an insult made you vote for Trump, you were probably never voting for Hillary anyway”. And I think that holds true.
Because if you know how FPTP works and you believe one of the two people who are going to win this race is better than the other - you have your vote figured out already.
But if you know you need all the votes you can get, then your strategy should be to acknowledge and assuage the concerns of your base. Your strategy should not be to tell your base to shut up, to call them Russian agents, and to stop publicly talking about how the United States is arming and funding a genocide, for example
Biden has significant weaknesses that need to be acknowledged and addressed. Ideally through policy changes. But if not that, then through significantly better rhetoric than his admin/team/PR agencies are currently using.
Insulting your critics is the worst possible move, especially when their criticisms are real and valid. We’re not talking about people who believe Hunter Biden was the mastermind behind Pizzagate - We’re talking about the majority of registered Democrats who believe that Israel is committing a genocide with American money and bombs. And we’re also talking about the median American family who can no longer afford to keep up with the increases to the cost of living - let alone buy a house for the first time without parental support. These are real concerns and Biden deserves criticism for them - and, ideally, he needs to deliver policy that addresses these concerns
This right here is why I don’t see value in arguing those facts and just concentrating on the fact that we have 2 real choices and one is clearly better.
There is absolutely nothing I can say to you that will convince you that what’s going on in Gaza isn’t a genocide. It’s literally not worth trying. I’ve seen people say shit like, “You know what we mean, even if we don’t mean literally genocide”. People either just like using the word to mean “murder” or “killing” or actually think there’s a literal genocide happening right now.
Either way, I’d rather just try to get people to see the simple, straightforward logic:
No matter what you or anyone else says next, 1 and 2 are true. That should lead you to 3, if you’re a logical person. If it doesn’t lead you there, you either still don’t understand the logic or you’re not all that concerned with his dictatorial comments, what that might mean for women, minorities, atheists, him getting MORE SCOTUS appointments, Ukraine/Russia, etc.
Again, nothing I or anyone else say is going to disabuse those people of that notion. We’ll just be called genocide deniers. Why try?
not really external propaganda and delusional nonvoters go hand in hand
This opinion is all over cable news in the US.
Even the Biden campaign claims that “polling is wrong” and he will win comfortably. The hubris is astounding.
However, to those who would post memes like this, pointing out these types of delusion is tantamount to supporting Trump. It’s an incredibly unhealthy alternative universe to exist in, and the only outcome of doing so will be a crushing Dem defeat come November. I’m not even talking about swing states here - even in New York Biden is only up by 9% now because of his unwavering support of genocide and refusal to improve the path for immigration, among many other shortcomings.
It’s legitimately possible the left abandons him and he picks up enough conservatives to win anyways.
There is not evidence that conservatives will support him
Trump has the support of party officials but actual conservative voter support is still soft. They really do prefer a Romney type. But they’ll vote Trump over Bernie. A “moderate” like Biden can pull a bunch.
That is really not true at all. He is beloved by the base and is exactly what they want
Assuming we ignore his polling, sure.
Neither of them are popular candidates. But they are in a statistical tie in Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, and Michigan. Although it’s going to be really awkward when Arizona sends a democratic senator while voting for Trump. (And Gallego is not a conservative.)
They’ve each got a hard base of unshakable supporters who are incredibly annoying and deliberately obtuse about the most obvious shit.
One thing Democrats have managed to do in hotly contested Senate races is to find people who aren’t hateful assholes.
Shame they couldn’t have run Mark Kelly for president.
Yeah. That they do. I don’t think Mark Kelly is interested in the presidency though. And until Arizona Democrats get a replacement lined up we need him where he is.
Meaning what? I’ve consciously stayed away from election/polling news
Meaning bad news for Biden fans.