I’m not anti-vegan. I know this sounds corny, but two of my close friends are vegan. In general I have wonderful meals with them. I will say that some of THEIR vegan friends can be pretty obnoxious and judgemental about others’ food choices in some circumstances.
That very often causes back and forth (and hurt feelings on both sides). I know it can be very offputting for a vegan to eat with a carnist, so I’m usually very conscious about what I order when I’m with vegans, but I honestly think not everyone understands that eating meat around a vegan can be an affront/insulting, which (generally) makes it different from the comparisons made here.
Religious food restrictions, in my experience, don’t involve disgust about others’ food decisions who don’t share those religious commitments. That doesn’t mean vegans who are disgusted by seeing meat being eaten is wrong or worse or anything, but I do think that’s partially where some of this friction arises from.
Unlike most religious or cultural reasons for not eating certain foods or drinking alcohol, veganism is often a morally “other-regarding” choice, which means it often comes along with judgemental opinions about carnists. I think that’s the main reason people can sometimes be rude towards vegans: I think it’s preemptive defensiveness for thinking they’re going to be judged.
I generally don’t eat meat around vegans simply out of respect. Similarly, if I’m eating with people who have religious or cultural dietary restrictions, I tend to just follow suit. I enjoy dining with people. I’m there for the conversation and company; eating something delicious that makes everyone comfortable isn’t much of a sacrifice.
which means it often comes along with judgemental opinions about carnists
I would disagree with this portion of your post if it said most or all vegans. I have found most vegans are making a personal decision without passing judgement on others.
Even so, there absolutely are militant vegans who want to shame others, and those vocal minority give the rest a bad name.
Source: Spouse is vegan. I am supportive, slowly changing my diet. Blood tests show really positive results. I still don’t understand honey.
I think that’s a reasonable criticism, however, most vegans (not all) see meat eating as an immoral act. Whether they express it or not, I have found very few vegans that don’t have strong opinions about flesh being consumed. Especially in front of them. I try to respect that.
I hunt, fish, and believe that domestically raised animals on small, well tended farms live a better life with less suffering and fear than animals in the wild.
Cortisol level tests support that. Being eaten alive by other animals isn’t exactly “better” than being eaten after being dead. And not knowing when/if you’re going to suddenly have your neck broken and then feasted upon by predatory animals while still alive and breathing, which I’ve seen many times, is nothing to sneeze at.
But factory farming is the most disgusting thing humans ever invented, and it is extreme violence, and I hate it with every fiber of my being. No living thing should be treated that way.
I have been a beekeeper for years. I agree that the bees are NOT in their natural habitat. However, I keep a significantly better control of the environment than the bees do in this habitat. It is better for the surrounding area, and I have talked my neighbors out of pesticide use because my bees will help pollinate their gardens and trees.
One extra note from the ko-fi article: I have never, ever heard of the practice of trimming queen wings. That is vicious, and I would never do that. Let the bees be bees. If they leave, I wasn’t doing a good enough job of supporting them. I am not a commercial beekeeper, though. Merely someone who likes being around them all year.
Eating a meal with friends should be a pleasurable experience. It’s not about me, it’s about us at that meal, which is what I’ve been discussing. I just get the sense that you wouldn’t be someone that I would have over for a vegan dinner party, you know?
I mean that’s not only vegans. On tinder i see a ton of militant meat eaters and anti vegans. Vegans or vegetarians literally say: i’m vegan, would be nice if you were too. While the other side of the coin is: real men eat meat, sorry not sorry. I eat meat, because i enjoy food too much. Please no vegans.
I met one super annoying vegan in my life who said: eating meat is like paedophilia, once you fucked a child you’ll always be a childfucker. On the other hand every time someone puts one and one together and realises that i’m a vegan, they tell me how bad it is and how good meat is and that it sucks.
Yes. Some health concerns started me thinking about my diet. Regular blood tests in my case means one baseline to basically kick everything off, followed by another 6 weeks later, and 2 subsequent follow up.
I’m not anti-vegan. I know this sounds corny, but two of my close friends are vegan. In general I have wonderful meals with them. I will say that some of THEIR vegan friends can be pretty obnoxious and judgemental about others’ food choices in some circumstances.
That very often causes back and forth (and hurt feelings on both sides). I know it can be very offputting for a vegan to eat with a carnist, so I’m usually very conscious about what I order when I’m with vegans, but I honestly think not everyone understands that eating meat around a vegan can be an affront/insulting, which (generally) makes it different from the comparisons made here.
Religious food restrictions, in my experience, don’t involve disgust about others’ food decisions who don’t share those religious commitments. That doesn’t mean vegans who are disgusted by seeing meat being eaten is wrong or worse or anything, but I do think that’s partially where some of this friction arises from.
Unlike most religious or cultural reasons for not eating certain foods or drinking alcohol, veganism is often a morally “other-regarding” choice, which means it often comes along with judgemental opinions about carnists. I think that’s the main reason people can sometimes be rude towards vegans: I think it’s preemptive defensiveness for thinking they’re going to be judged.
I generally don’t eat meat around vegans simply out of respect. Similarly, if I’m eating with people who have religious or cultural dietary restrictions, I tend to just follow suit. I enjoy dining with people. I’m there for the conversation and company; eating something delicious that makes everyone comfortable isn’t much of a sacrifice.
I would disagree with this portion of your post if it said most or all vegans. I have found most vegans are making a personal decision without passing judgement on others.
Even so, there absolutely are militant vegans who want to shame others, and those vocal minority give the rest a bad name.
Source: Spouse is vegan. I am supportive, slowly changing my diet. Blood tests show really positive results. I still don’t understand honey.
I think that’s a reasonable criticism, however, most vegans (not all) see meat eating as an immoral act. Whether they express it or not, I have found very few vegans that don’t have strong opinions about flesh being consumed. Especially in front of them. I try to respect that.
I hunt, fish, and believe that domestically raised animals on small, well tended farms live a better life with less suffering and fear than animals in the wild.
Cortisol level tests support that. Being eaten alive by other animals isn’t exactly “better” than being eaten after being dead. And not knowing when/if you’re going to suddenly have your neck broken and then feasted upon by predatory animals while still alive and breathing, which I’ve seen many times, is nothing to sneeze at.
But factory farming is the most disgusting thing humans ever invented, and it is extreme violence, and I hate it with every fiber of my being. No living thing should be treated that way.
The short version:
https://ko-fi.com/post/Unveiling-the-Bitter-Side-of-Honey-M4M5N7135
https://www.fastcompany.com/90457908/eating-honey-is-more-complicated-than-you-might-think
If you know anything about apiculture, then you know that it’s part of animal farming/raising (zootechny) in the same vein as pastoralism.
I have been a beekeeper for years. I agree that the bees are NOT in their natural habitat. However, I keep a significantly better control of the environment than the bees do in this habitat. It is better for the surrounding area, and I have talked my neighbors out of pesticide use because my bees will help pollinate their gardens and trees.
One extra note from the ko-fi article: I have never, ever heard of the practice of trimming queen wings. That is vicious, and I would never do that. Let the bees be bees. If they leave, I wasn’t doing a good enough job of supporting them. I am not a commercial beekeeper, though. Merely someone who likes being around them all year.
To be blunt, you’re the sort of person I try to avoid having dinner with. And I think that’s good for both of us.
The fact that you think your pleasureful experience is what matters is part of the problem. It’s not about you.
Eating a meal with friends should be a pleasurable experience. It’s not about me, it’s about us at that meal, which is what I’ve been discussing. I just get the sense that you wouldn’t be someone that I would have over for a vegan dinner party, you know?
You are quite literally projecting.
I mean that’s not only vegans. On tinder i see a ton of militant meat eaters and anti vegans. Vegans or vegetarians literally say: i’m vegan, would be nice if you were too. While the other side of the coin is: real men eat meat, sorry not sorry. I eat meat, because i enjoy food too much. Please no vegans. I met one super annoying vegan in my life who said: eating meat is like paedophilia, once you fucked a child you’ll always be a childfucker. On the other hand every time someone puts one and one together and realises that i’m a vegan, they tell me how bad it is and how good meat is and that it sucks.
You are having regular blood tests? Is there a reason for this?
Yes. Some health concerns started me thinking about my diet. Regular blood tests in my case means one baseline to basically kick everything off, followed by another 6 weeks later, and 2 subsequent follow up.