Even with the new 100% tariff on electric vehicles imported from China, BYD would still have the cheapest EV in the US. According to a new report, BYD’s lowest-priced EV would still undercut all US automakers at under $25,000.
After discontinuing the production of vehicles powered entirely by internal combustion engines in March 2022, BYD has been at the forefront of the industry’s shift to EVs.
Honestly in my opinion it is time to remove all tariffs on EVs under 25k and let anyone who wants to fill that slot in. American car manufacturers refuse to fill the market need.
America: Capitalism is the greatest! Everyone should do capitalism!
China: we don’t think so.
America: we’re gonna kill everyone who doesn’t do capitalism. Do capitalism ok?
China: Ok then.
America: No, not like this.
If I were in the US, I would hold out for the Aptera.
How many decades into waiting for Aptera are you now?
I would hold out on it, not preorder. I already got ripped off by Sono Sion. I can only hope that it does encourage innovation when it comes out so that eventually in decades it will also be in Europe and I will eventually also be able to use my dusty EV savings account to buy it.
I just bought a BYD for my parents here in İstanbul. Very satisfied with it so far.
I have a BYD Seal here in Australia. You yanks are missing out
I really want the Dolphin but I definitely am in no way near being able to afford it yet.
My mother in law has the Dolphin, its really roomy for a car that size and quite nice to drive
I’ll take interest when their labor practices are closer to humane and further from indentured servitude.
deleted by creator
Yeah say what you want about American cars but at least they’re from unionized factories
We miss out on so much from the rest of the world but we have so many pridefully ignorant people that will die on any hill that might improve our lives.
I’d personally love to have more than 0 weeks of government required paid time off, sick days, the top reason for bankruptcy not be medical bills, and no more mass shootings but I will most likely be dead before any of that happens.
Oh yeah? Wheres your carrier battle group, bub?
You guys will protect us, we give you Pine Gap
We will protect Pine Gap 🙃
Fun fact. The ten most “American-made” cars of 2023 are:
Tesla Model Y Tesla Model 3 Tesla Model X Tesla Model S Honda Passport Volkswagen ID.4 Honda Odyssey Acura MDX Honda Ridgeline Acura RDXHmmm, something seems to be missing… 🤔
Mercedes, Audi and BMW?
I’m sure they’re right around the corner, pretty close to the top 10.
Oh, you meant Ford, GM and Chryslerdaimlerfiatstellantis?
Yeah nah, as true patriots, they produce in other countries so Americans would pay for the cars, but not be paid to build them.
For better or worse, there are multiple ways of measuring “American Made”. An alternate measure, which probably matters more in this conversation, is “how many people that worked on <product> are American residents”. Here’s a study that tries to rank each model by how much it contributes to the US economy
The vast majority of the development (engineering, planning, purchasing/supply chain, quality, after sales, etc) effort for Honda and VW is overseas, along with most other non-domestic brands. This extends beyond their own employees to their tier 1s. Many OEMs use suppliers that are located geographically close to their development centers.
None of this excuses the domestic OEMs for their abandonment of cars, their endless march to higher and higher average transaction price, or their quality records.
What do you mean by putting Honda and VW in the list?
Oh wow! That goes back far, I had no idea. Thanks for enlightening!
all the custom cars?
Why did Ford dump all of the models that offered a variety of price points ?
Because they could afford to be profitable and not care about 90% of the US consumer body.
Same with GM and Dodge RAM. They quit making lots of cars to save money for themselves. And now the US has betrayed the US consumer again pushing a green agenda while maintaining OIL hegemony in vehicles for the masses.
Now we have fewer types of vehicles, lower inventory, higher prices, 10 year car loans, and restrictions on getting the green vehicles that we were encouraged to want. American Dream has become the American Delusion.
It’s the same cycle we had from back in 2002, under the Bush Hummer tax cut. Government subsidized light trucks and made gasoline artificially cheap, so people went out and bought these enormous vehicles and dumped millions of gallons into them for power.
Then 2008 hits, gas prices go vertical, car loans go bust, and the Big 3 are out begging for bailouts. Obama delivers (while Mitt Romney signs his own death warrant in Michigan by telling Detroit to go bankrupt) and rides a popular wave of support for saving the American auto industry from itself. But he doesn’t bother to do any kind of regulation or curb the consumption of fossil fuels, because that would make soccer moms still driving their 10 ton vehicles sad.
Then the bubble pops in 2020 thanks to COVID and everyone runs into receivership again and we’ve got to flood the zone with taxpayer bailout money.
But that’s okay, because COVID actually gave us cheap gasoline again! So we get another era of cheap gasoline and big cars and a brand new automotive industry bubble.
Gee, I hope history doesn’t repeat itself.
:/ sorry bro
The funny thing is y’all in the US still have a better selection of vehicles available than we do in Europe, it’s just mostly not from American marques.
I recently got my hands on a USDM Subaru. It has more options than the EU spec one so I figured I’d look at the US Subaru website and yup, even for current model years, they have WAY more options available in terms of both models and trims. Y’all still get the WRX sedan, we only get the Impreza hatchback with a naturally aspirated engine. We don’t get the Ascent either.
You guys also get things like the Toyota 4-runner, Volkswagen Atlas, etc in terms of SUVs that are pretty big, but not gigantic.
Yeah, as with most things in the US currently, prices are artificially inflated. They’re doing this because they’re trying to keep up the facade that ‘these are just the new prices cuz inflation’ when it’s painfully apparent that it’s not. They’re trying to pocket as much of our money as possible and they know if competition is introduced they’ll be forced to cut into those sweet sweet greedflation profits. I’m honestly never going to buy another US made vehicle if I can help it. My next vehicle will more than likely be foreign electric, and seeing this post just solidifies I’ve made the right decision.
And these Chinese vehicle prices are artificially deflated.
They’re trying to pocket as much of our money as possible and they know if competition is introduced they’ll be forced to cut into those sweet sweet greedflation profits.
I’m honestly never going to buy another US made vehicle if I can help it. My next vehicle will more than likely be foreign electric
I don’t really follow this line of logic. You state that companies here are artificially inflating their prices but then state that you’ll buy a foreign brand electric, which is going to be one of the exact same companies that you accuse of inflating prices. There are only a handful of US car makers, GM, Ford, and Tesla, and only 1 of those 3 put out EVs in any meaningful quantity.
What is it you’re not understanding? Honest question, no sarcasm. I’m stating I won’t buy a US vehicle, and my next will most likely be a foreign electric. Did I state something false because US manufacturers aren’t meeting a threshold of electric vehicles produced? Market is shifting to electric, which means even if they aren’t now, they’ll probably lean into electric in the coming years. Again though, no relation to either of the statements I made.
Because all those foreign manufacturers are already selling their vehicles here and for comparable prices to the tiny share of remaining US companies that still exist (GM, Ford, Tesla). If you think these high prices are just US companies being greedy, then how do you explain VW, Hyundai, Kia, Toyota, etc selling their cars for the same price?
In reality it’s all about the battery manufacture. It’s the most expensive component and BYD is vertically integrated (they even mine their own lithium, they are a huge battery manufacturer in their own right and sell cells to other companies to make cars) and has done extensive research on making it cheap with their BYD blade. Nobody can afford to compete with them, but it’s not because they’re getting subsidies. It’s because they’re a company that’s built completely different when you compare it to buying batteries from third parties.
The cry foul that people make is no company would’ve survived in building that sort of initial vertical integration without the government propping them up. That’s right, but I don’t see the US trying to develop an industry that even compares.
This is obviously false as Tesla has their own battery factories and still can’t sell that cheap, Korea has Samsung and LG manufacturing batteries on a comparable scale and Hyundai/Kia can’t sell that cheap, Japan has (partnered with Tesla) Panasonic and can’t sell that cheap. China is heavily subsidizing these vehicles. You can’t sell an equivalent car for less than half the competition, tens of thousands of dollars cheaper, just because you happen to be vertically integrated in manufacturing a big part of the car.
like how the cost of gas is artificially deflated in the USA ?
Yes.
From your tone, it sounds like you think that’s a bad thing, yet it also seems like you’re arguing for more of the same from China.
The major difference is China is subsidizing green technologies that are good for curbing climate change and the USA is subsidizing harmful shit that’s killing us all
Give me a break. China has some of the most lax environmental regulations on the planet which is why all the nastiest shit on the planet is produced there. To pretend like they’re some bastion of environmental protection is laughable.
Yes, they are subsidizing green technology but this isn’t for the benefit of the people, it’s for the benefit of the government as they want the rest of the world to be reliant on them alone. About a decade ago they did this same exact thing with photovoltaics and put a ton of solar manufacturers out of business because nobody could compete with a pocketbook the size of the Chinese government’s.
In China, abandoned EVs are piling up all over the place. Can you point out what about this is good for the environment when EVs only begin to offset the pollution created from their production after they’ve been driven around for a few years?
https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2023-china-ev-graveyards/
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions_per_capita
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/co-emissions-per-capita
Does your gut have any published studies?
They’re also building 95% of the world’s new coal plants: https://www.carbonbrief.org/china-responsible-for-95-of-new-coal-power-construction-in-2023-report-says/
New coal construction has basically stopped everywhere else, including the US.
“Per capita” is also doing some heavy lifting. Nature doesn’t care about per capita. It cares about overall output, and China’s is enormous. They’d need to produce over four times less co2 on a per capita basis to be equivalent to US output. They’re closer to two times.
And these Chinese vehicle prices are artificially deflated.
Deflated thanks to the buying power of the US dollar. That’s just more US economic policy rebounding on itself.
You state that companies here are artificially inflating their prices but then state that you’ll buy a foreign brand electric
Domestic automakers are running enormous administrative overhead, thanks to their focus on stock buybacks and investment in kitsch features like AI. That, plus the high cost of computer chips created by the AI/Metaverse/Crypto bubble which is, itself, feeding into buybacks and other corporate accounting tricks to boost executive and board compensation.
Chinese firms don’t have that baggage. So they don’t need to put enormous markups on their vehicles. The real cost to produce for a new car (especially a small one) is fairly low and you can still turn a big profit on volume if you can outcompete American automakers on price.
There are only a handful of US car makers
Thanks to decades of consolidation. But those car makers have millions of workers spread across dozens of factories. They command hundreds of billions of dollars in domestic capital. Its not like these are three smol beans fighting the Big Scary BYD. These are three of the wealthiest and most profitable businesses to ever exist on the planet.
And they can’t compete.
Deflated thanks to the buying power of the US dollar. That’s just more US economic policy rebounding on itself.
Deflated because China is subsidizing these vehicles directly as they’re state owned companies. What are you even talking about with the buying power of the US dollar?
Domestic automakers are running enormous administrative overhead, thanks to their focus on stock buybacks and investment in kitsch features like AI. That, plus the high cost of computer chips created by the AI/Metaverse/Crypto bubble which is, itself, feeding into buybacks and other corporate accounting tricks to boost executive and board compensation.
Really? Let’s see some names and numbers. How much did Hyundai invest in the Metaverse and crypto. How much have they spent on stock buybacks? What about Toyota, VW, BMW, GM, Tesla, Honda, and MINI. What percentage of their overhead accounts for these investments exactly? This reads like incoherent ramblings of all the things you don’t like in the world but focused at car companies.
The real cost to produce for a new car (especially a small one) is fairly low and you can still turn a big profit on volume if you can outcompete American automakers on price.
So what’s the exact cost to produce a new car?
Thanks to decades of consolidation
Uh, what? Are you referring to the decades of 1900-1910? GM has owned their subsidiary brands for over 100 years along with Ford and Tesla is a relatively new company. What consolidation?
They command hundreds of billions of dollars in domestic capital. Its not like these are three smol beans fighting the Big Scary BYD. These are three of the wealthiest and most profitable businesses to ever exist on the planet.
And China commands hundreds of trillions of dollars, which is who automakers are really competing against.
Three of the wealthiest and most profitable businesses to ever exist on the planet? This is legitimately hilarious and so false. GM was bankrupt 15 years ago. Ford has had to survive on government loans which it wasn’t able to pay back until recently and both have a market cap of ~$50B. Tesla is an outlier as they’re valued extremely high for their financial situation and what they’ve produced thus far and most people agree that they’re a bubble waiting to burst. By what metric are they the most profitable and wealthiest?
Also, aside from all this ignorance, what’s your justification for the bulk of the US auto market, made up of foreign companies, selling their cars for the same prices as these three domestic companies?
Deflated because China is subsidizing these vehicles
What do you think those $7k US tax credits for new EVs constitute?
A subsidy that applies to everyone in the market, not just the “home team.” That’s the difference between subsidies to entice consumers to buy EVs and subsidies to put your competitors out of business to the detriment of everyone but you.
Or, hear me out, they’re trying to stop the Chinese from taking over entire global industries by leveraging slave labor and impossible government incentives…?
You’re right, and they have a history of government sponsored corporate espionage and industry subsidies that support this.
However, this is an unpopular opinion on Lemmy. Ask me how I know…
American (and european) car makers can’t fill that market need due to higher labour costs and stricter environmental laws.
Also the fact that the chinese government heavily subsidizes electric auto makers skews the market in favour of the chinese manufacturers.
They also make better cars. That also helps.
For example Volkswagen has no EV that even comes close to a BYD in terms of quality.
It’s the Walmart business model. Move into a new area and undercut your competitors just long enough to put them out of business. Once this happens you have the market over a barrel and can charge however much you like.
I seriously don’t understand how people keep falling for this rhetoric and claiming this is all about protecting US companies when there are only 3 US companies left and they barely makeup 1/3 of the US auto market.
undercut your competitors
Or just buy them out and close the doors.
At some point though the benefit of moving away from fossil fuels infrastructure outweighs the labor and strategic protection afforded by tariffs. IMO we are at that point- if we keep on doing what we’re doing for another 30-50 years union jobs probably won’t matter when vast parts of the world become uninhabitable
America owns the fossil fuel industry. That is what all those “invade countries to steal their oil” memes are about.
Those environmental benefits are lost when they’re built in a country with some of the most lax environmental laws in the world and then shipped halfway across the planet.
They also seem to be of questionable quality as in China, they have abandoned EVs piling up all over the place. There’s nothing good for the environment here.
https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2023-china-ev-graveyards/
then Incentivize EV reuse as home scale batteries
This is a good use for the old battery packs but it’s not like you can just park the derelict car in your garage to power your home.
These packs will need to be processed and then resold as battery storage banks. This also ignores all the pollution created from producing these cars in the first place along with the pollution created from recycling the car only for them to be treated like disposable junk and tossed into the garbage after a couple years.
why can’t the car just be parked in the back (or front) yard permanently with a tarp over it?
I wouldn’t buy such cars if I’d know they were X% made with human suffering.
Yeah I’m fine with just taking a train that will last way longer and is staffed by my local citizens who are being paid for their labor and effort and rent a well made car made from a respectful compamy or buy it if I need it long term.
But I guess I might just be a conservative socialist cause I don’t think mass produced with slave labor, with stolen raw materials still from Africa, millions of individual electric vehicles is still any form of solution for anything least of all climate change.
But sure let’s praise china for doing the uber model of electric cars.
Tariffs + subsidies of our own + improvements of public transit/city planning
Buying chinese electric cars ain’t gonna help the environment.
it is time to remove all tariffs on EVs under 25k and let anyone who wants to fill that slot in.
How to force other car makers to build more reasonable EVs at more reasonable prices is an important question. But the answer isn’t “Uyghur labor camps”.
Okay fair point. What about regular old prison labour?
You mean prison slavery? That’s the US, get on it lol
Hey I’m not discriminating, I think US and China compete very well on prison populations.
Not really, and you can thank every president after and including Nixon for that. Specially Nixon and Reagan though.
How reliable do you think those numbers are?
Reliable enough for Wikipedia, it seems.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_United_States_incarceration_rate_with_other_countries
Yeah a cursory look does seem to confirm the USA is a world leader in locking people up!
China is sadly far behind in yet another key metric. But they’re making good headway by having almost as many Uighers in camps as their entire prison population!
Thanks for the sources.
Not a thing where I live, so I didn’t even consider that.
Give me an affordable glorified golf cart so I can zip around town and run errands and then plug it in at home and do it all again in 12 hours.
China makes lots of those, but you might die in them rolling down the road next to coal-rolling jackwagons.
Fiat Microlino
edit: not that affordable actually for what you get.
Damn… Same. I was always excited for Elio which was supposed to be American made and use a moped engine that got insane gas mileage and cost 7 grand. Before their factory was bought from underneath them and they scammed everyone out of their money.
I will also take a glorified golf cart at this point.Fuck yeah! But I don’t want to pay $12000 for that.
Citroen Ami
I just heard about these recently, and they sound amazing!
Mitsubishi i-MiEV
Honestly in my opinion it is time to remove all tariffs on EVs under 25k and let anyone who wants to fill that slot in.
One essential thing bears repeating: it’s not the manufacturer that bears the cost of tariffs, it’s the customers. Or said another way, if BYD cars double in price in the US, it’s American customers who will pay the difference.
A certain presidential candidate loves to beat that drum but consistently fails to mention that the immediate effect of new tariffs is making Americans poorer.
A certain presidential candidate loves to beat that drum but consistently fails to mention that the immediate effect of new tarriffs is making Americans poorer.
How poor do you think Americans will be when all their jobs are replaced with Chinese slave labor? Are you really just completely ignorant of the purpose of tariffs?
Are you really just completely ignorant of the purpose of tariffs?
Re-read what I wrote:
the immediate effect of new tarriffs is making Americans poorer.
Do tariffs work? Maybe. You also have to remember that China will retaliate and impose tariffs on US good, so overall the effects of tariffs are rarely a net benefit for anyone - which is why they’re rarely a good idea.
But the fact remains that the day after tariffs are applied, Americans lose access to cheaper goods. That’s just a dry fact.
the immediate effect
okay so…tomorrow is just not important?
Do tarriffs work? Maybe
LOL of course they do, that’s why countries around the world have been using them for literal centuries…
That’s just a dry fact.
It’s a dry fact that completely ignores many other factors. Sometimes govs make decisions that make sacrifices that achieve a net benefit. They’d be fucking morons not to.
okay so…tomorrow is just not important?
Again, reread what I wrote: I made no comment on the long term efficacy of tariffs. All I said was that when a presidential candidate says “we’ll make China pay”, it’s factually incorrect.
I made no comment on the long term efficacy of tariffs
…which is precisely the problem.
There are some situations where imports being cheaper is due to foreign government subsidies undercutting local production and tarrifs are the wat to level the field. Frequently this gets warped into protectionism, allowing local production to have a leg up while continuing their crappy business practices, like most US auto manufacturers.
In this case the 100% tariffs is mostly the latter. It was not a thought out rate based on any kind of logic, just an emotional overreaction.
We do not need someone in office proposing reactionary, emotionally based tax policies.
foreign government subsidies undercutting local production and tarrifs are the wat to level the field.
Also, lack of labor, safety, and environmental regulations. Chinese companies literally own slaves, no worker can’t compete with free. Combine that with safety and environmental, you get cheap manufacturing.
Dont forget spyware as well! Lots of that built in.
That exists in USA’s supply chain too.
Prisoners are the most glaring omission from the Constitution’s abolition of slavery.
Undocumented immigrants are exploited even harder than other working class people living in America, and that’s the real reason that neither party will do more than give lip-service to securing the border, or even talk about going after employers who hire undocumented workers.
Do you think that prison labor and undocumented workers are a significant portion of the labor used to produce EVs in the USA?
Prisoners may find it difficult to make the commute and show up on time for a factory shift.
But actually yes, their labor contribution is a significant component in the supply chain.
For example, if an undocumented worker labors to produce food, that frees up another person’s labor for working in a factory.
Some of the things used in the automotive industry that are made by prisoners:
-wiring harnesses
-interior components like seat covers, upholstery, and floor mats
-lighting components like headlights and interior lights
-repair and refurbishment of government fleet vehicles; brakes, body work, painting, mechanical repairs, etc…, which also frees up the labor of skilled mechanics to work on returning broken EVs to the roadOther goods and services produced by prisoners that indirectly assist the production of EV’s include:
-circuit boards, mostly for government use, but lower demand for civilian circuit board manufacturing capacity lowers the prices of EV components
-office furniture
-eye-wear, including prescription lenses and safety glasses that might be worn in the EV factories
-metalworking, including making toolboxes, lockers and shelves that may be found in EV factories
-government warehouse & distribution jobs free up civilian labor that can go into EV supply chain logisticsSo directly, absolutely not.
Indirectly, probably.
??? China has literally been subsidizing BYD to help it to beat out foreign manufactures and to make it competitive in foreign markets. So yeah, there may be some protectionism involved, but there is definitely an argument that China is unfairly subsidizing BYD, making it impossible for rival companies to compete.
https://electrek.co/2024/04/12/china-gave-byd-an-incredible-3-7-billion-to-win-the-ev-race/
And we’ve been subsidizing ours too. We just do it differently than straight up handing them money. (Although we’ve done that before too)
The main issue is that China seems to subsidize BYD quite a bit more than other countries do. In addition, this seems to match China’s general policy of finding ways to give its own companies advantages in foreign markets, while limiting the equivalent from other countries
Yes, yes, yes.
But why does the West, which has been technologically ahead the entire time, can’t produce a cheap simple EV?
Like sure, China is propping up their shit maybe more than the West is, but why can’t we get one small inexpensive simple car?
It’s because the so-called “subsidies” from the Chinese government are much more than the “subsidies” wielded by the American government. In America a subsidy amounts to throwing money and tax breaks at corporations and asking them to make something with it - but Chinese subsidies are direct investments, with the government controlling how the money is spent and staying involved every step of the way. That’s why they turn so reliably into increased production and reduced prices while our own subsidies tend to turn into stock buybacks.
There’s really no practical reason why the US couldn’t adopt a similar industrial policy - imagine going to GM/Ford/Chevy and paying them to build new EV factories in Detroit, directly overseeing the whole process from start to finish, and leaving behind government representatives at all levels of the factories’ operation - but the reason we don’t do it is pretty much purely ideological.
Most of the subsidies that article was talking about are actually domestic buyers subsidies.
But wouldn’t that be communism?! We wouldn’t want that! 😱
the reason we don’t do it is
pretty much purely ideologicalmoney wouldn’t go to the executives pockets immediately
why can’t we get one small inexpensive simple car?
Lots of reaons but mostly because our cars are built by union members and not literal slaves.
I mean the tech is still new as well as the point that SSJMarx mentioned. To add to the list of reasons to make expensive version of cars first:
- New tech is more expensive usually
- Not everyone has the budget to openly spend 20K plus on a new vehicle, which means lower demand
- Since not everyone will just buy a new car, companies need to make as much money per unit sold which means luxury cars make more sense
- additionally lowering demand is the fact that not everyone wants an EV or feels comfortable driving them (due to its different fueling method)
I do expect that over time manufactures will begin to release cheaper EVs over time that are aimed for average consumers.
I’m sorry, but that makes 0 sense.
Not everyone can spend 20k, so let’s make 100k cars?
And when China is selling such cheap cars, let’s stop them too, because there is no demand?
There is nothing logical about your arguments.
Pretty sure other incentives have been implemented for other car companies like tax rebates. Let’s not forget the fossil fuel industry being subsidized still…
Those incentives don’t just apply to US companies only which is what China is doing with their state-owned companies.
You’re correct, but what I was, not clearly, talking about is increasing the incentives so its easier for people to purchase electric vehicles. You do bring up a good point that fossil fuel subsidies should also be reduced to better reflect its true costs.
During global boiling crisis we should completely reverse and start taxing fossil fuel
The complicated thing about that is it will harm your average worker until cheap alternatives are available.
?? Then why tarriff EVs?
Yes, that is a reason for having tariffs to offset the government subsidy. But “100% tariffs” instead of one set based on the actual impact of the government subsidies is an emotional overreaction.
What would be the alternative? China is no releasing numbers to how much they subsidize BYD, I doubt BYD would want to be that transparent either.
From my point of view the US could either wait, try to study and figure out the puzzle for how much China subsidizes BYD in order to come up with a good tariff amount, all while China still accomplishes its goals, or they can put tariffs now and make adjustments later. For all we know, 100% tariff may be too low, we don’t know for certain.
Let me know if there’s a better plan that’s being talked about.
The 100% tariff was Trump spouting the first thing that came to his lips during the debate. It was stupid and as you pointed out, it might not be high enough depending on subsidies received by BVD. Or it could be way too high, because of the reduced costs to manufacture like most things we buy from China.
A better plan is for knowledgeable experts to evaluate the situation and set tariffs, which is the normal process.
Or the other option, subsidize American EVs. They’ve been trying to do that, but pretty half assed, to the point where only Tesla and a few Chevys qualify.
My understanding is that the subsidize are to also encourage american manufacturing which those companies you listed satisfy. These subsidies are incentives for manufacturers rather than buyers, as it encourages these companies to change their manufacturing process which would lead to reduced costs.
Yeah, tax incentives and consumer rebates won’t encourage investment in American EV manufacturing capacity because they could disappear overnight and the extra capacity would then be wasted.
Free money to build new factories will do it though, and that’s what Uncle Sam has been spending on - its less risky to tool up a factory for mass production of a low margin family sedan when somebody else is paying for the tools and you won’t lose money if your new model sedan doesn’t sell enough units to cover the one time factory startup costs.
allowing local production to have a leg up while continuing their crappy business practices, like most US auto manufacturers.
What US manufacturers? There is only GM, Ford, and Tesla left. People are so ignorant of the market here while simultaneously telling us all “how it is” with their strong, uninformed opinions.
The point of tariffs like that is to allow us made vehicles be the option of choice to buy.
The $25,000 ev means it’s a cheaply made car at what would have been an awesome price at $12,500, but not so great at $25,000.
American manufacturers could/would never be able to compete against a $12,500 ev sedan. So the tarriff keeps American evs bloated prices from looking too unreasonable. They can still compete against a $12,500 car being sold for $25,000
it’s not the manufacturer that bears the cost of tarriffs, it’s the customers.
And the locals that lose their means of providing for themselves.
The higher price point caused by passing on the tariffs to consumers hurts the manufacturer through reduced sales.
Tariffs do hurt companies by driving potential sales elsewhere.
Or they would, if the product wasn’t still the cheapest available by 10-30% after the tariffs.
As much as I want cheap EVs I trust china about as far as I can throw the country with access to all the data the could get from cars in this country.
They make almost everything you use. They have massive access already. Most of your current car electronics are made there.
So tired of this nonsense argument. Most electronics are engineered locally, the designs are sent overseas, the hardware is built to local specifications, and it runs locally-written software.
That is entirely different from electronics that are engineered and manufactured in China and run Chinese software, all under the close eye of the CCP.
Much easier to backdoor data when you make the entire system including the software.
then maybe the us should blanket ban closed source/ binary blob automotive software
Who do u think makes most of the electronics for vehicles currently?
Components != Complete system including software
Things are so tiny nowadays, you could probably cram a tiny processor w/ ram, and 5g modem into something the size of one of those cylindrical capacitors. Of course getting by the scrutiny of US engineers receiving a product with that would be a little harder.
US cars wouldn’t cost so much if the corporations would stop overloading the cars with features I don’t want. Here’s what I need: Car to go Car to charge
Here’s what I want: Radio AC/heat Electric windows
The wants are not even requirements.
They don’t even makes cars anymore…
BYD cars are actually more feature rich than US cars from what I see. One of their big selling points locally was karaoke from the infotainment system.
I really want an OPEC (one person electric car)
Backup cameras are required by law for safety reasons. Same with ABS, seatbelts, airbags etc, but a LOT of things can be ripped out.
Heat/AC are really required as well in most places.
I’d be happy if an Android or iPhone was a REQUIREMENT. It’d run the car as an app, be a nav system, entertainment and everything, plus keep the cost down even further.
Crank window (note only one!) on the ONE door with an emergency push out window on the other side. Speakers? No. A mono, Bluetooth connected one in the headrest is plenty.
It would need to be able to cruise at 70mph, but all the other little changes would mean huge weight savings and a single person “bubble shape” would be real aerodynamic. A standard 120v plug would be all that would be even offered. Keeps coat and weight down.
Nah, I don’t need google updates being a critical component of my transportation. Mobile phone as an OPTIONAL ceter console, sure, but the vehicle must still work without it.
The closest I can get is a Renault Twizy!
A Bluetooth speaker set would be nice too. That’s not very expensive. Nor is the tablet in the dashboard. You could get both for less than a thousand dollars.
The features really aren’t the problem. They just refuse to stop price gouging.
How do I buy one?
Tariffs are a punishment for consumers looking for affordable products, designed to help government officials and their megacorp buddies avoid competition.
Tariffs were literally lobbied for and implemented by Unions back in anno tobak
Tariffs would be good if the 1% wasn’t stealing all the wealth imo.
The counterpoints are about local US employment and thinking comparative advantage is bullshit.
