Hey there, so the first example does seem fairly OCD–like the real kind. A lot of people reference it wrongly so I wanted to double check.
Idioms are phrases that don’t make literal sense. For example in the USA, saying that someone is “all that and a bag of chips” means they are exceptional or really cool. Or that a task was a “piece of cake” means that task was easy.
So to be frank I have dug into each nugget of what you said (I cataloged it, because of course I did lol). And you have every sign of being autistic. I made a list of highlights:
I have a friend that identifies with these symptoms. What could the root cause be, if any? - Masking in social situations
Not knowing one’s self (original post about masking)
Has ADHD (you mentioned)
Hates eye contact (I asked)
Authenticity is a highly rated trait in relationships (I asked)
Does not like small talk like thank you/good morning (You mentioned)
Deep-dives interests for a long time (You mentioned): “for a long time” is important here. ASD/AuDHD typically does them for a long time. “Pure” ADHD does them usually less than a week, often to the point where they forget to eat or sleep.
No sensory issues but does prefer comfortable clothes over appearance (asked/told): I would argue that’s sensory-driven (comfort is your sense of touch), but may be nothing to be fair.
Notices traits of utensils but does not bother them (asked): Even noticing them is not typical of allistic people. Could be nothing too, but this is potential sensory thing #2.
Feels different from others (asked): Super common for ADHD and ASD
OCD symptoms as a child: Common for ASD kids too. As many as 38% of ASD people have OCD as well, compared to 7% of the general population.
Seeing through people’s intentions when trying (asked): Fairly common, especially of the PDA (Pathological Demand Avoidant) profile of ASD. I will write about this a bit at the bottom.
Can see flirting but does not know how to flirt (asked): Not knowing how to flirt is super common for ASD
Resonates with the example of “old man that hates change always tinkers in the shed”(you mentioned): This is something that resonates frequently with ASD people because of the predictability and being ok with solo activity.
Before I go on: The PDA profile of ASD is basically that being met with demands will trigger anxiety/fight-or-flight (demands could be anything like: questions, plans, decisions, instructions, time constraints and more). The difference is, all those are fine if you consent. Example, We have had this chat and you consented to the parts you answered. But what if your significant other needed you to run to the store while they were making dinner with no notice. Would it be a little annoying or would you total dread it/it would give you anxiety? PDA people also have higher than average social skills when they need to. Example, can you almost magically tell when someone is trying to sell you something or wants something from you? You may be PDA. PDA is huge and has literal books on it, but I credit it with the reason I often considered being autistic (sounds like you considered this before, yes?), but when I would look into it I “wasn’t”.
Ok all that said: if it’s not ASD or some alternate profile (what used to be called Asperger’s Syndrome, or the PDA profile), I am totally stumped. You show so many markers it’s wild. I have no idea how you scored so low on the test. The test is only 80% accurate, so 1 in 5 can’t be diagnosed by it so maybe that’s why. But you have had OCD symptoms as a kid (OCD has 38% comorbidity with ASD) and currently identify as ADHD (up to 80% comorbidity with ASD). Not liking change and being ADHD simply don’t fit together as well. And you survived all these long ass write-ups haha, but that could be the novelty-seeking to be fair! I’m not trying to tell you what you are but IMHO you 110% are autistic and other stuff is helping to hide it. Side note, if me telling you I think you’re autistic is repulsive (this includes earlier in the conversation, like when you said the tests were no different than past tests), PLEASE look into the PDA profile. That is exactly how it would feel. I had a buddy I knew was autistic and it took me 4 months of patience to get him to believe me.
I would love to hear your thoughts.
P.s. I’m glad you’ve caught up on some rest. Diagnosis aside, rest is healthy for everyone and self care is so so important!
i get those, but i cannot tell if its because im already acquainted with them or if its because i understand them innately? idioms in my native language sound much more intuitive to me (and honestly much cooler) now that i think of it.
But what if your significant other needed you to run to the store while they were making dinner with no notice.
well id be annoyed, like i usually am, but not the end of the world. ill take a small break to get some fresh air.
PDA people also have higher than average social skills when they need to.
ok maybe, but i cant do it for 15 minutes before getting exhausted. social interaction IS mostly intuitive for me (after some introspection), but thats only if im engaged enough to be able to pay attention to other people without that being a drag for me. i kind of dont want to bother with normies because they wont ever reciprocate that effort, but at the same time i like some of them and do because loneliness is also exhausting.
to be clear, i do like change most of the time. i have some routines and things i want to keep stable that help me stay calm and functional, but i actively seek shakeups in my life when im on a slump and get frustrated if i cant get it. i’m currently feeling like this for a long while now. i kind of want to throw it all away and do completely different things from scratch.
i think most of these things are also done by allistics? i feel that i cant relate to autism even if many signs point in that direction and i am constantly asking myself if this is truly the answer. its confusing if a little frustrating.
but at any rate i’m here to understand things, and you seem both knowledgeable and willing to share it. my only real resistance to autism is the fact its a game over kind of thing where there is no real solution. how can i effectively learn to act normal consistently if my brain isnt made for it? how do i unlearn it when i want to relax from pretending to be normal? “just being myself 🌼” is stupid and impractical on a capitalistic society that wants me to conform to standards that are impossible to me so i can be exploited? how can i even find peace?
are there fixes i can try immediatly to try and see if it fits with PDA and if it helps?
Future me here: sorry it’s a book lmao. I got typing and next thing I knew it’s like 1,000 words. I went through and tried to trim it down as best I could.
So with allistics, as far as I can understand (because I’m not), often the little interruptions that are annoying to us are much less so to them. Pushing through social situations may not “recharge” them (aka they’re introverted) but they can typically do it much easier than neurodivergent people. If you need to be specifically engaged to find social situations intuitive, I would argue you do not find them intuitive. I would bet you’re probably checking a million little things in your head about what they said, how they said it, body language, and so on. Allistics don’t focus that close on it. As best as I can see, allistic communication is like 85% vibe and 15% information. Autistic is more like 90-100% information, depending on “how autistic” the people communicating are. Vibes are still there, but are not felt so much as deduced based on a bunch of little details we see. Broadly speaking, autistic people assemble information from the ground up (little pieces fit together to make a bigger model of something), and allistics assemble information from the top down (often this looks like they want the absolute MINIMUM information and almost seem to get stressed with detail). Example, I work in a PC repair shop. My neurotypical (NT) customers will want to hear “your computer is fixed and ready to be picked up” and the autistic customers will want to know a lot more detail (hey this was a bad firmware update and it damaged a stick of RAM. That led to the lasted Windows update to corrupt and caused your bluescreen) and maybe even learn from the interaction.
Hating change is not the autistic trait. Craving order and routine is. If you are both ADHD and Autistic (this is called AuDHD), often this is obscured because the two conditions want different things. ADHD likes novelty, and Autism likes routine so you would get a bit of both if that’s the case. And the symptoms are similar too, but a little different. For example, ADHD will hyperfocus to the point where you forget your needs like eating, but Autism will have special interests that will seem similar but for longer. For me, a hyperfocus may be for a day or two, but a special interest is like 3 months minimum, and I typically will come back to them over time. ADHD will often not return to old hyperfixations.
I’m not saying you’re for sure autistic, that’s for you to decide. But if you are autistic, it’s not a disability in itself. It becomes a disability because the world is not made for autistic people. When I first learned I was autistic (this is about 2 years ago now), I had a similar mindset (not wanting to appropriate the term “autistic” is actually common in late-diagnosed people, and I was no exception). Anyway, this is what I did:
I tried to go through and learn the vocabulary and see how much of it applied to me. (First time I took the RAADS-R test I got like 70, and now after years of processing and remembering things I score like 140+). Once you know the words for things, if you’re autistic, you’re probably going to have some “ah-ha” moments where things begin to click.
Then, as you have names for things and learn, some of the fixes will be intuitive. Hate eye contact? Don’t make it with strangers. Or do so minimally. It’s unbelievably freeing. Like a routine? Do them, and protect them. I get pizza every Friday, and unless something incredible is happening, I don’t miss it. Some things are a little less intuitive. Learning to unmask is a HUGE task and arguably far more to learn and do than understanding autism is. Which brings us to step 3.
Learning to unmask (what you called unlearning). This is a massive process and there’s a really good chance that you don’t even know all the ways you mask (you sort of mentioned this in the idiom point, where you don’t know if they’re intuitive or you just learned them already). The book I recommended Unmasking Autism by Devon Price is great for this. Some of it may seem too “soft” or dramatic based on you not wanting to be held down by this, but I would recommend it anyway. Remember it’s written for a wide audience, and some of us have it worse than others.
As you learn to unmask, social situations become easier. Remember that autistic masking is a form of trauma masking, much like a domestic violence victim would “snap into action”? Well once you learn to heal from that stuff, the masking is more voluntary, like acting. And at that point it’s not your body freaking out in fight-or-flight, it’s just performing an act. And if you’re in a position where you can reduce social interactions to a routine (common in retail, sales, and so on), then it’s even easier. If you feel dumb when you’re in social situations, or if you feel smarter when you’re alone and allowed time to solve problems, this will also get easier. Fight-or-flight impacts the activity in your frontal lobe and will make you literally dumber while it’s happening. Not your fault, it’s just how brains work.
So there is some debate about the PDA profile being real or not. A lot of people seem to identify with it, but it also very much seems to be anxiety-fueled so the medical community is like “oh that’s just autism plus stress”. The one thing that is agreed on is, getting your anxiety down is key. You can look into what you’re eating, if you’re agreeing to social commitments you do not want to go to, and a million more things. Impossible for me to say from here really. But start saying “no” when you can safely do so and make time to do your hobbies and not feel sorry for it. Also, about 2-3 years ago, the University of Stanford found that the visual pattern of moving forward (think the animation of the Star Wars lightspeed effect), literally calms you at the neurological level. Going for a walk of any length daily can be hugely beneficial for your health. I know it’s a cliche but it’s true.
As you learn these skills, you will slowly but surely find stressors and remove them happily. There is a good chance you have at least one narcissist in your life if you’re neurodivergent. You’ll likely identify one or a few of them and get away from them.
Lastly, find friends that are like you. I know, easier said than done. But if you’re autistic, try to find local groups and go be weird together without judgement. I found out I’m actually an extrovert, but a super selective one. Most people drain me, but MY people make feel great when I’m around them. It makes it so much easier when you’re not getting shit on for not making eye contact, or if you want to squeeze some putty while you talk. If you’re high masking, you’ll likely feel a little angry because these people are not masking like you’ve had to. It’s a normal part of the process. Just notice it and move on. I don’t think you can add friends on Lemmy yet but I have most other platforms. I’m assuming you speak English because your written English is fantastic. And if not that’s fine. Either way, I’m happy to be your first autistic friend, even if you’re not. I personally think we’re a lot easier to deal with but maybe I’m biased lol
i will definetly check the book out when im not as pressed for time (and tired as fuck), its not the first time i hear of it. hopefully it clicks for me and hopefully its as helpful as you say.
i think my anxiety comes from not doing enough of the stuff i want to do instead, at least nowadays. ive found cool normies to hang out with throughout the years sometimes, but ive always had a feeling that more than half of my friends were neurodivergent in a way or another. not necessarily the same as me, but looking back they were much better and more trustworthy people than average, thats for sure. i do feel dumber sometimes, its hard to participate effectively when you are juggling many thoughts.
we can be friends if you dont mind that i scrapped most forms of social media from my life, and communicate with messengers mostly. you seem like a good person.
For sure man, anxiety can come from a lot of things, but no matter what it’s from it can put you in a brain fog.
Looking back, I was lucky enough to have a group of friends in high school which we cleverly called “the group” (lol), and we were all weird and very likely neurodivergent. One thing I learned early was, weird people are a lot more authentic and authentic is much safer. Sounds like you have had a similar experience.
I’ll hit you up in a dm for contact info. I am also barely on SM… shits cancer imo. I’m going to leave this conversation thread here in the event that maybe someone can take value from it in some amount of time, if that’s cool with you.
Hey there, so the first example does seem fairly OCD–like the real kind. A lot of people reference it wrongly so I wanted to double check.
Idioms are phrases that don’t make literal sense. For example in the USA, saying that someone is “all that and a bag of chips” means they are exceptional or really cool. Or that a task was a “piece of cake” means that task was easy.
So to be frank I have dug into each nugget of what you said (I cataloged it, because of course I did lol). And you have every sign of being autistic. I made a list of highlights:
I have a friend that identifies with these symptoms. What could the root cause be, if any? - Masking in social situations
Not knowing one’s self (original post about masking)
Has ADHD (you mentioned)
Hates eye contact (I asked)
Authenticity is a highly rated trait in relationships (I asked)
Does not like small talk like thank you/good morning (You mentioned)
Deep-dives interests for a long time (You mentioned): “for a long time” is important here. ASD/AuDHD typically does them for a long time. “Pure” ADHD does them usually less than a week, often to the point where they forget to eat or sleep.
No sensory issues but does prefer comfortable clothes over appearance (asked/told): I would argue that’s sensory-driven (comfort is your sense of touch), but may be nothing to be fair.
Notices traits of utensils but does not bother them (asked): Even noticing them is not typical of allistic people. Could be nothing too, but this is potential sensory thing #2.
Feels different from others (asked): Super common for ADHD and ASD
OCD symptoms as a child: Common for ASD kids too. As many as 38% of ASD people have OCD as well, compared to 7% of the general population.
Seeing through people’s intentions when trying (asked): Fairly common, especially of the PDA (Pathological Demand Avoidant) profile of ASD. I will write about this a bit at the bottom.
Can see flirting but does not know how to flirt (asked): Not knowing how to flirt is super common for ASD
Resonates with the example of “old man that hates change always tinkers in the shed”(you mentioned): This is something that resonates frequently with ASD people because of the predictability and being ok with solo activity.
Before I go on: The PDA profile of ASD is basically that being met with demands will trigger anxiety/fight-or-flight (demands could be anything like: questions, plans, decisions, instructions, time constraints and more). The difference is, all those are fine if you consent. Example, We have had this chat and you consented to the parts you answered. But what if your significant other needed you to run to the store while they were making dinner with no notice. Would it be a little annoying or would you total dread it/it would give you anxiety? PDA people also have higher than average social skills when they need to. Example, can you almost magically tell when someone is trying to sell you something or wants something from you? You may be PDA. PDA is huge and has literal books on it, but I credit it with the reason I often considered being autistic (sounds like you considered this before, yes?), but when I would look into it I “wasn’t”.
Ok all that said: if it’s not ASD or some alternate profile (what used to be called Asperger’s Syndrome, or the PDA profile), I am totally stumped. You show so many markers it’s wild. I have no idea how you scored so low on the test. The test is only 80% accurate, so 1 in 5 can’t be diagnosed by it so maybe that’s why. But you have had OCD symptoms as a kid (OCD has 38% comorbidity with ASD) and currently identify as ADHD (up to 80% comorbidity with ASD). Not liking change and being ADHD simply don’t fit together as well. And you survived all these long ass write-ups haha, but that could be the novelty-seeking to be fair! I’m not trying to tell you what you are but IMHO you 110% are autistic and other stuff is helping to hide it. Side note, if me telling you I think you’re autistic is repulsive (this includes earlier in the conversation, like when you said the tests were no different than past tests), PLEASE look into the PDA profile. That is exactly how it would feel. I had a buddy I knew was autistic and it took me 4 months of patience to get him to believe me.
I would love to hear your thoughts.
P.s. I’m glad you’ve caught up on some rest. Diagnosis aside, rest is healthy for everyone and self care is so so important!
i get those, but i cannot tell if its because im already acquainted with them or if its because i understand them innately? idioms in my native language sound much more intuitive to me (and honestly much cooler) now that i think of it.
well id be annoyed, like i usually am, but not the end of the world. ill take a small break to get some fresh air.
ok maybe, but i cant do it for 15 minutes before getting exhausted. social interaction IS mostly intuitive for me (after some introspection), but thats only if im engaged enough to be able to pay attention to other people without that being a drag for me. i kind of dont want to bother with normies because they wont ever reciprocate that effort, but at the same time i like some of them and do because loneliness is also exhausting.
to be clear, i do like change most of the time. i have some routines and things i want to keep stable that help me stay calm and functional, but i actively seek shakeups in my life when im on a slump and get frustrated if i cant get it. i’m currently feeling like this for a long while now. i kind of want to throw it all away and do completely different things from scratch.
i think most of these things are also done by allistics? i feel that i cant relate to autism even if many signs point in that direction and i am constantly asking myself if this is truly the answer. its confusing if a little frustrating.
but at any rate i’m here to understand things, and you seem both knowledgeable and willing to share it. my only real resistance to autism is the fact its a game over kind of thing where there is no real solution. how can i effectively learn to act normal consistently if my brain isnt made for it? how do i unlearn it when i want to relax from pretending to be normal? “just being myself 🌼” is stupid and impractical on a capitalistic society that wants me to conform to standards that are impossible to me so i can be exploited? how can i even find peace?
are there fixes i can try immediatly to try and see if it fits with PDA and if it helps?
Future me here: sorry it’s a book lmao. I got typing and next thing I knew it’s like 1,000 words. I went through and tried to trim it down as best I could.
So with allistics, as far as I can understand (because I’m not), often the little interruptions that are annoying to us are much less so to them. Pushing through social situations may not “recharge” them (aka they’re introverted) but they can typically do it much easier than neurodivergent people. If you need to be specifically engaged to find social situations intuitive, I would argue you do not find them intuitive. I would bet you’re probably checking a million little things in your head about what they said, how they said it, body language, and so on. Allistics don’t focus that close on it. As best as I can see, allistic communication is like 85% vibe and 15% information. Autistic is more like 90-100% information, depending on “how autistic” the people communicating are. Vibes are still there, but are not felt so much as deduced based on a bunch of little details we see. Broadly speaking, autistic people assemble information from the ground up (little pieces fit together to make a bigger model of something), and allistics assemble information from the top down (often this looks like they want the absolute MINIMUM information and almost seem to get stressed with detail). Example, I work in a PC repair shop. My neurotypical (NT) customers will want to hear “your computer is fixed and ready to be picked up” and the autistic customers will want to know a lot more detail (hey this was a bad firmware update and it damaged a stick of RAM. That led to the lasted Windows update to corrupt and caused your bluescreen) and maybe even learn from the interaction.
Hating change is not the autistic trait. Craving order and routine is. If you are both ADHD and Autistic (this is called AuDHD), often this is obscured because the two conditions want different things. ADHD likes novelty, and Autism likes routine so you would get a bit of both if that’s the case. And the symptoms are similar too, but a little different. For example, ADHD will hyperfocus to the point where you forget your needs like eating, but Autism will have special interests that will seem similar but for longer. For me, a hyperfocus may be for a day or two, but a special interest is like 3 months minimum, and I typically will come back to them over time. ADHD will often not return to old hyperfixations.
I’m not saying you’re for sure autistic, that’s for you to decide. But if you are autistic, it’s not a disability in itself. It becomes a disability because the world is not made for autistic people. When I first learned I was autistic (this is about 2 years ago now), I had a similar mindset (not wanting to appropriate the term “autistic” is actually common in late-diagnosed people, and I was no exception). Anyway, this is what I did:
I tried to go through and learn the vocabulary and see how much of it applied to me. (First time I took the RAADS-R test I got like 70, and now after years of processing and remembering things I score like 140+). Once you know the words for things, if you’re autistic, you’re probably going to have some “ah-ha” moments where things begin to click.
Then, as you have names for things and learn, some of the fixes will be intuitive. Hate eye contact? Don’t make it with strangers. Or do so minimally. It’s unbelievably freeing. Like a routine? Do them, and protect them. I get pizza every Friday, and unless something incredible is happening, I don’t miss it. Some things are a little less intuitive. Learning to unmask is a HUGE task and arguably far more to learn and do than understanding autism is. Which brings us to step 3.
Learning to unmask (what you called unlearning). This is a massive process and there’s a really good chance that you don’t even know all the ways you mask (you sort of mentioned this in the idiom point, where you don’t know if they’re intuitive or you just learned them already). The book I recommended Unmasking Autism by Devon Price is great for this. Some of it may seem too “soft” or dramatic based on you not wanting to be held down by this, but I would recommend it anyway. Remember it’s written for a wide audience, and some of us have it worse than others.
As you learn to unmask, social situations become easier. Remember that autistic masking is a form of trauma masking, much like a domestic violence victim would “snap into action”? Well once you learn to heal from that stuff, the masking is more voluntary, like acting. And at that point it’s not your body freaking out in fight-or-flight, it’s just performing an act. And if you’re in a position where you can reduce social interactions to a routine (common in retail, sales, and so on), then it’s even easier. If you feel dumb when you’re in social situations, or if you feel smarter when you’re alone and allowed time to solve problems, this will also get easier. Fight-or-flight impacts the activity in your frontal lobe and will make you literally dumber while it’s happening. Not your fault, it’s just how brains work.
So there is some debate about the PDA profile being real or not. A lot of people seem to identify with it, but it also very much seems to be anxiety-fueled so the medical community is like “oh that’s just autism plus stress”. The one thing that is agreed on is, getting your anxiety down is key. You can look into what you’re eating, if you’re agreeing to social commitments you do not want to go to, and a million more things. Impossible for me to say from here really. But start saying “no” when you can safely do so and make time to do your hobbies and not feel sorry for it. Also, about 2-3 years ago, the University of Stanford found that the visual pattern of moving forward (think the animation of the Star Wars lightspeed effect), literally calms you at the neurological level. Going for a walk of any length daily can be hugely beneficial for your health. I know it’s a cliche but it’s true.
As you learn these skills, you will slowly but surely find stressors and remove them happily. There is a good chance you have at least one narcissist in your life if you’re neurodivergent. You’ll likely identify one or a few of them and get away from them.
Lastly, find friends that are like you. I know, easier said than done. But if you’re autistic, try to find local groups and go be weird together without judgement. I found out I’m actually an extrovert, but a super selective one. Most people drain me, but MY people make feel great when I’m around them. It makes it so much easier when you’re not getting shit on for not making eye contact, or if you want to squeeze some putty while you talk. If you’re high masking, you’ll likely feel a little angry because these people are not masking like you’ve had to. It’s a normal part of the process. Just notice it and move on. I don’t think you can add friends on Lemmy yet but I have most other platforms. I’m assuming you speak English because your written English is fantastic. And if not that’s fine. Either way, I’m happy to be your first autistic friend, even if you’re not. I personally think we’re a lot easier to deal with but maybe I’m biased lol
i will definetly check the book out when im not as pressed for time (and tired as fuck), its not the first time i hear of it. hopefully it clicks for me and hopefully its as helpful as you say.
i think my anxiety comes from not doing enough of the stuff i want to do instead, at least nowadays. ive found cool normies to hang out with throughout the years sometimes, but ive always had a feeling that more than half of my friends were neurodivergent in a way or another. not necessarily the same as me, but looking back they were much better and more trustworthy people than average, thats for sure. i do feel dumber sometimes, its hard to participate effectively when you are juggling many thoughts.
we can be friends if you dont mind that i scrapped most forms of social media from my life, and communicate with messengers mostly. you seem like a good person.
For sure man, anxiety can come from a lot of things, but no matter what it’s from it can put you in a brain fog.
Looking back, I was lucky enough to have a group of friends in high school which we cleverly called “the group” (lol), and we were all weird and very likely neurodivergent. One thing I learned early was, weird people are a lot more authentic and authentic is much safer. Sounds like you have had a similar experience.
I’ll hit you up in a dm for contact info. I am also barely on SM… shits cancer imo. I’m going to leave this conversation thread here in the event that maybe someone can take value from it in some amount of time, if that’s cool with you.
i dont mind.
we called ourselves “the empire” (huge lol)