Of course, after Trump in the white house, it’s kinda irrelevant.
Historians have a word for Germans who joined the Nazi party, not because they hated Jews, but out of a hope for restored patriotism, or a sense of economic anxiety, or a hope to preserve their religious values, or dislike of their opponents, or raw political opportunism, or convenience, or ignorance, or greed.
That word is “Nazi.” Nobody cares about their motives anymore.
They joined what they joined. They lent their support and their moral approval. And, in so doing, they bound themselves to everything that came after. Who cares any more what particular knot they used in the binding?
“We” aren’t labeling “them” anything. They literally sided with Neo-Nazis. People carrying swastika flags in support of Trump, and you think “not Nazis” were ok with that? Sorry friend, but no. If someone is okay to march with Nazis, they’re a fucking Nazi.
I must have missed something if every single Trump voter was out there marching with the ones carrying the nazi flag. Maybe I should get my eyes checked, as I sure didn’t see tens of millions of people in those photos.
Stop misusing literally.
I understand what you’re getting at, but I vehemently disagree that guilt by association can be reasonably applied to the entirety of a group this fucking large. Has the same feel to me as being distrustful of every person with dark skin because of skewed crime statistics.
I’m not misusing the word. They saw Nazi flags flying and at best they thought
Well, I might not agree with what they’re saying, but they have a right to say it
Except that what a Nazi flag says is incompatible with what this country should be, with what these people who think themselves “patriots” profess to believe. You don’t think guilty by association is fair? Explain to me why not, please. In what way is “Yep, being on the same side as Nazis is fine” not just being a fucking Nazi? I will be positively floored if you can come up with a single reasonable scenario to convince me there’s any difference.
And don’t think this is in bad faith, either. If you can convince me you might just give me a fighting chance to forgive my family who went off the deep end. It is actually quite important to me, I’ve just given up there’s any hope of getting through to them after so long. Especially now he won.
I can’t speak to your family, but when you talk about the full group of people who voted for Trump (or even people that would self identify as conservativr) you’re talking about tens of millions of people. The idea that absolutely all, or even a majority of them, are explicitly aware of and OK with the people marching with nazi flags is something that can’t just be taken as fact.
That’s the core thrust of your argument, and it’s so obviously flawed to me that I honestly have a hard time engaging with it.
Likewise, guilt by association is something that doesn’t hold up at the mind boggling scales we’re talking about. Guilt by association isn’t ok in the far smaller scale case of associating the looters that took advantage of the BLM riots with the BLM rioters, right? It’s not ok on the scale of “darkies commit more crimes statistically, so they’re all criminals” right? So how can we lean on that so heavily with a much larger group that crosses all sorts of demographics lines?
Let me be clear: The ones that are aware, the ones that are literally sitting across the table (not simply a member of a mind bogglingly large amorphous group of vague political beliefs), the ones that are actually racist… fuck em. Garbage people.
But the assertion that literally every single person who made the shit ass choice to vote for the cheeto is just as bad as the marching nazis on his side is just a childish attempt to simplify a massively complicated situation involving many millions of people, all with their own personal lived experiences, priorities likely different from yours, differing levels and sources of news exposure, differing levels of education, and differing levels of political engagement.
This next part may sound condescending, but I hope you can believe that I don’t mean it to be:
Maybe that simplification is what you need to make it through the day. Fair enough. Maybe that’s what you need to not lose your mind having fruitless conversations with assholes. Fair enough.
But don’t delude yourself into thinking that’s any true solution for moving forward. It’s survival at best. Maybe that’s all you’re capable of right now, and that’s fine. Life was and continues to be rough without all this extra shit. Without taking it upon yourself to try and fix the gaping chasm of political divide.
Just don’t be surprised when these people you denigrate, ignore, blanketly label as the worst of humanity don’t have interest in working with you towards a better tomorrow. That’s the trade off.
There either has to be some attempt made to reach and turn these people, or we resign ourselves that this shit will continue to happen again and again.
Let me be clear: The ones that are aware, the ones that are literally sitting across the table (not simply a member of a mind bogglingly large amorphous group of vague political beliefs), the ones that are actually racist
See, we’re talking about the same people, you’re just more willing to believe the majority are innocent of knowing exactly what they voted for. I don’t, and I do subscribe heavily to that Teddy Roosevelt principle of personal responsibility. The buck stops with me. This lot claim to, and don’t.
If it helps, I’ve been doing a lot of thinking and I believe I’ve narrowed down the problem with my family in particular. “I don’t have to prove shit”, they each said to me, and that’s really why I’ve given up on them. There’s no talking to that.
It’s not a nice way to say it, but it is important to distinguish conservatism from the current situation where you have conservatives supporting nazis, planning concentration camps, and planning to pull a Hong Kong-style silencing of the opposition.
It is important to tell conservatives that the guy they voted for has gone off the deep end. For diplomatic reasons, I would probably avoid emotional words and say something along the lines of “we’re concerned that Trump plans to illegally block the democratic party from elections and trans people and immigrants may have to flee the country in the face of workplace discrimination or outright persecution and violence. His politicization of the military could lead to another coup attempt.”
But that’s just part of how you defuse fascism, those are the words you use with both Putin supporters and Trump supporters.
There is no place on earth and no time in history where “guh, inflation” is a reasonable excuse to vote for a nazi.
Of course, after Trump in the white house, it’s kinda irrelevant.
Sure, let’s just casually label half the fucking country as Nazis. That definitely worked last time.
Prime fucking example of exactly what their first comment was talking about.
“We” aren’t labeling “them” anything. They literally sided with Neo-Nazis. People carrying swastika flags in support of Trump, and you think “not Nazis” were ok with that? Sorry friend, but no. If someone is okay to march with Nazis, they’re a fucking Nazi.
I must have missed something if every single Trump voter was out there marching with the ones carrying the nazi flag. Maybe I should get my eyes checked, as I sure didn’t see tens of millions of people in those photos.
Stop misusing literally.
I understand what you’re getting at, but I vehemently disagree that guilt by association can be reasonably applied to the entirety of a group this fucking large. Has the same feel to me as being distrustful of every person with dark skin because of skewed crime statistics.
I’m not misusing the word. They saw Nazi flags flying and at best they thought
Except that what a Nazi flag says is incompatible with what this country should be, with what these people who think themselves “patriots” profess to believe. You don’t think guilty by association is fair? Explain to me why not, please. In what way is “Yep, being on the same side as Nazis is fine” not just being a fucking Nazi? I will be positively floored if you can come up with a single reasonable scenario to convince me there’s any difference.
And don’t think this is in bad faith, either. If you can convince me you might just give me a fighting chance to forgive my family who went off the deep end. It is actually quite important to me, I’ve just given up there’s any hope of getting through to them after so long. Especially now he won.
I can’t speak to your family, but when you talk about the full group of people who voted for Trump (or even people that would self identify as conservativr) you’re talking about tens of millions of people. The idea that absolutely all, or even a majority of them, are explicitly aware of and OK with the people marching with nazi flags is something that can’t just be taken as fact.
That’s the core thrust of your argument, and it’s so obviously flawed to me that I honestly have a hard time engaging with it.
Likewise, guilt by association is something that doesn’t hold up at the mind boggling scales we’re talking about. Guilt by association isn’t ok in the far smaller scale case of associating the looters that took advantage of the BLM riots with the BLM rioters, right? It’s not ok on the scale of “darkies commit more crimes statistically, so they’re all criminals” right? So how can we lean on that so heavily with a much larger group that crosses all sorts of demographics lines?
Let me be clear: The ones that are aware, the ones that are literally sitting across the table (not simply a member of a mind bogglingly large amorphous group of vague political beliefs), the ones that are actually racist… fuck em. Garbage people.
But the assertion that literally every single person who made the shit ass choice to vote for the cheeto is just as bad as the marching nazis on his side is just a childish attempt to simplify a massively complicated situation involving many millions of people, all with their own personal lived experiences, priorities likely different from yours, differing levels and sources of news exposure, differing levels of education, and differing levels of political engagement.
This next part may sound condescending, but I hope you can believe that I don’t mean it to be:
Maybe that simplification is what you need to make it through the day. Fair enough. Maybe that’s what you need to not lose your mind having fruitless conversations with assholes. Fair enough.
But don’t delude yourself into thinking that’s any true solution for moving forward. It’s survival at best. Maybe that’s all you’re capable of right now, and that’s fine. Life was and continues to be rough without all this extra shit. Without taking it upon yourself to try and fix the gaping chasm of political divide.
Just don’t be surprised when these people you denigrate, ignore, blanketly label as the worst of humanity don’t have interest in working with you towards a better tomorrow. That’s the trade off.
There either has to be some attempt made to reach and turn these people, or we resign ourselves that this shit will continue to happen again and again.
See, we’re talking about the same people, you’re just more willing to believe the majority are innocent of knowing exactly what they voted for. I don’t, and I do subscribe heavily to that Teddy Roosevelt principle of personal responsibility. The buck stops with me. This lot claim to, and don’t.
If it helps, I’ve been doing a lot of thinking and I believe I’ve narrowed down the problem with my family in particular. “I don’t have to prove shit”, they each said to me, and that’s really why I’ve given up on them. There’s no talking to that.
What if the only way to turn them is a repeat of 1939-1945?
It’s not a nice way to say it, but it is important to distinguish conservatism from the current situation where you have conservatives supporting nazis, planning concentration camps, and planning to pull a Hong Kong-style silencing of the opposition.
It is important to tell conservatives that the guy they voted for has gone off the deep end. For diplomatic reasons, I would probably avoid emotional words and say something along the lines of “we’re concerned that Trump plans to illegally block the democratic party from elections and trans people and immigrants may have to flee the country in the face of workplace discrimination or outright persecution and violence. His politicization of the military could lead to another coup attempt.”
But that’s just part of how you defuse fascism, those are the words you use with both Putin supporters and Trump supporters.
There is no place on earth and no time in history where “guh, inflation” is a reasonable excuse to vote for a nazi.