Some psychologists believe our values tend to cluster around certain poles, described as “intrinsic” and “extrinsic”. People with a strong set of intrinsic values are inclined towards empathy, intimacy and self-acceptance. They tend to be open to challenge and change, interested in universal rights and equality, and protective of other people and the living world.

People at the extrinsic end of the spectrum are more attracted to prestige, status, image, fame, power and wealth. They are strongly motivated by the prospect of individual reward and praise. They are more likely to objectify and exploit other people, to behave rudely and aggressively and to dismiss social and environmental impacts. They have little interest in cooperation or community. People with a strong set of extrinsic values are more likely to suffer from frustration, dissatisfaction, stress, anxiety, anger and compulsive behaviour.

Pretty garbage takes here: we have the good, properly motivated group that votes for good guys and the bad people who are attached to the superficial and illusions…

This would not be different from a conservative analyzing the left as motivated by prestige/status (proper virtue signaling as approved by academia/mass media) and material gain through democrat policies, while the right is motivated by reason and real values, true philosophy, etc. Something I think we’ve heard done…

Pathologizing your political opponents is absolutely never a good look whether left or right does it.

I will not say that there are aspects of the above that are not true, however, just as how some leftists are very performative and only concerned with appearing correct and receiving accolades from people they admire. But to really suggest the majority of Trump voters (which are conservatives in general) are not motivated by their own principles and visions is just demonizing your opponents.

I love everybody bro

But no, seriously, I see no reason to believe they ordered the hack, or that they believed the passwords would continue the illegal exploitation of private information.

I see no reason why people who shared the hacked data of a Nazi website would be prosecuted as if they are malicious hackers themselves.

So, why?

The real answer to all of this is just decentralization - this was the intention of the Constitution, I believe, and the very model of American government.

I am uncomfortable with the idea of being held responsible for them circulating this data - if they did not illegally obtain it, can it be said to be the case that they are violating rights by presenting it…? Unless, of course, they believed they were functioning passwords and it was part of a further operation to continue using the information to breach the company’s data.

It could potentially be seen simply as verification of some element of a news story - like how we have seen the publication of names / email addresses / passwords etc. of Nazi websites be leaked, often after the sites have been taken down, simply as part of verifying that the site was legit taken down, the site was populated by actual people, etc.

I also do not think it is good to take down “far right” news media that isn’t even really far right. OAN, Newsmax, etc., are certainly conservative, but what would we really be even doing if we were to take down mid-stream conservative Trumpist outlets…? Driving more people towards news sites like Unz and platforms like Gab. Make it impossible for them to have larger networks in the free marketplace of ideas, and then you drive them into the arms of smaller & more radical networks.

I am not a Leftist, but I wouldn’t think of this as a leftist W unless your idea of a W is serving the short-term interests of the DNC.

I would suggest that we have always wanted uprisings against the government which is ruled by corrupt, “middle of the road” people, right, so there should be a loose alliance between the grassroots right wing and the grassroots left wing that fight for policies that are ideological and based on principle.

It’s the centrists, who govern through practicality and concerns of the immediate future, that are the greatest stumbling blocks to change. They have obligations to the elites - the ideological left/right do not have any such obligations.

I disagree vehemently with Trump on his views of Muslims and his ideas about Israel, of course, but the guy certainly is an enemy of the establishment and floats out ideas that are radical and haven’t been talked about in decades, like his 10% tariff tax plan.

These are real starting points for change.

BTW, I am not really a conventional leftist - I am a Libertarian, and you probably got that from some of our arguments, but I want to come out and say it… I do nto want to be seen here like PRETENDING to be a conventional leftist and thus undermining discussion.

Nah, an insurrection is what was happening in Iraq after the 2003 invasion (and happening rightfully so).

If what occurred on J6 was an insurrection, it would have been explicitly violent or had a real organized plan for the literal overthrow of the government.

Even the ridiculous plan organized by the Proud Boys was not really an insurrection even though it involved demanding a re-vote (or a re-vote after a recount) because it ultimately wanted to preserve democratic norms, and the fools who came up with it sincerely believed that democracy was completely undermined by the last election… Which, arguably, it was.

Employing non-lethal means to occupy a place as a protest seems reasonable, doesn’t it? This is what people did after the killing of George Floyd.

I imagine that some do pay for it, while others don’t.

I’ve learned there’s a huge variety in compensation for Priests, as well. In places like Greece, where it is the state religion, Priests are government employees, I believe, and they get some fixed amount as public servants, while in much of the world it all depends on the local parish. Many priests have to continue working in the world to pay their bills.

I am not sure if there has been a case at my church where we have crowdfunded a casket but I know we have people pay something like $25 USD a year to be buried in the Church cemetery, which is an absolute steal.

Poor people here are universally cremated.

I consider it to be alarming because it can encourage people to choose cremation unnecessarily, just because it fits the budget. I would not take away or mock anyone’s choice to cremate if that really is their first choice…

But I think it’s upsetting for Orthodox Christians and other groups that require burial and would like to have a dignified casket at an affordable price. Just like how I sometimes feel bothered thinking about *the cost of burial plots." The idea of being fleeced of a significant part of a modest inheritance through the funerary process is really off-putting.

I suppose my definition is the one from the Oxford dictionary:

an organized attempt by a group of people to defeat their government and take control of their country, usually by violence:

J6 cannot meet such a burden since it was not an organized attempt and it certainly wasn’t violent in the way that a real move to overthrow the government would be, only violent in the sense that any disorganized protest can be.

… And while some people can toss around the word insurrection, you notice that there is no serious charge against Trump on this, because there can be no charge, since he said nothing nor does any other evidence exists which show he incited anyone to any illegal act, let alone an attempt to overthrow the government. This is only possible through assumption & interpretation of what happened that it was even an ‘insurrection.’

That’s a mere interpretation of what happened that would never stand up in a court of law, hence why no formal charges have been brought. It’s completely speculative.

Which is exactly why we can’t remove him from ballots or refer to it as an insurrection.

Remember the Iraq War? We referred to the opposition after Hussein fell as terrorists (not very accurate, very lame Zioconservative take), or as insurgents, which is accurate.

Insurgency implies some long term armed resistance. It can’t refer to some impromptu riot on the police lines.

Glenn Greenwald actually talked about how Trump supporters are famously distrustful of (a) the Security State and (b) corporate media, and so there’s only like two news sources that they show positive numbers for trust in - Fox and Newsmax.

What doesn’t help is that they do lie about Trump, and make him out to be a literal insurrectionist… Think what you want about him in terms of his politics being colored by racism and Islamophobia (his Muslim ban was pretty nuts), but you can’t call the guy an insurrectionist unless you greatly modify what an insurrection is and what it means to insight one. Things like this plus upgrading frivolous financial misdemeanors that megacorporations routinely violate to federal crimes in an effort to remove him from the ballot have a radicalizing effect…

But yeah, IDK, I’d vote for Trump over Biden because he is antiestablishment and his foreign policy is better in the long run.