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The Chinese communism revolution killed a shit lot of peoples. I hate capitalism but you have to be objective .also there were less comunism countries to begin with so yeah you can do what you want with statistics but its worth nothing more than a cry/Chad wojack
You’re literally blaming communists for the deaths of a civil war with multiple factions and you’re compaining about being objective lmao. Are you even aware of the conditions that led to the civil war in China? These events do not happen in a vacuum you know?
Actually I’m blaming China for thinking they could kill birds without repercussions. Turns out, that kills people. Like, millions of people. But capitalism bad bc reasons
/thread
Máo was particularly annoyed by the Eurasian Tree Sparrow (Passer montanus, 树麻雀) part of the diet of which was grain. Chinese scientists had calculated that each sparrow consumed 4.5kg of grain each year — and that for every million sparrows killed, there would be food for 60,000 people. Armed with these statistics, Máo launched the Great Sparrow Campaign to address the problem.
[…]
The campaign against the sparrows was finally terminated in late 1959 when the Academy of Sciences leaders highlighted the findings of scientists such as Zhu Xi and Zheng Zuoxin. Zhu and Zheng had autopsied the digestive systems of sparrows and found that three-quarters of the contents were harmful insects and only one-quarter was human food. This showed that sparrows were beneficial for humans.
On this advice from the Chinese Academy of Sciences, Máo declared a complete halt to the Great Sparrow Campaign, replacing sparrows with “bed bugs” in the “Four Pests” campaign. Suddenly sparrows were not just protected but the domestic population was supplemented by imports of sparrows from [Soviet] Russia!
Eventually, after several years of poor crop yields, the situation began to improve. The number of people who starved in the 1958–1961 famine is disputed — and it’s impossible to say how much of the disaster was caused by the extermination of sparrows — but there can be no doubt that this episode is a stark lesson about the unintended consequences of human interference into natural ecosystems.
(Source.)
If we are to be 100% objective, the Chinese Revolution also saved millions. Life expectancy doubled, and hundreds of millions have been lifted out of poverty. We also know that the Black Book of Communism has long been debunked, it included made up numbers, Nazis killed during World War II as victims of Communism, and non-births as deaths.
We also know that the Black Book of Communism has long been debunked
According to Wikipedia, even a few of its own co-authors have denounced it, saying the main author was obsessed with inflating the numbers.
Yep, it’s a notoriously bad book.
As expected this made libs here seething. Spectre haunts again lmao.
aren’t those “killed by communists” lists tend to include the Nazis killed in ww2? kind of dishonest.
That is one of the more honest examples of what they do.
You want dishonest?
They count the difference between expected birthrate and actual birthrate.
War causes people to have less babies? Each baby not born = 1 death caused by communism.
Worse then dead, they never were.
it’s interesting how anyone who dies in a communist country (even not being born there counts) is considered “death by communism”, but then ignore the same from non communist counties.
kind of dishonest on their part…
Better sex education, access to contraception/abortion, and generally women having more control over when they have children/how many children they want to have under socialism was claimed to have taken “victims” too. Because if you’re not accidentally getting pregnant at 19 with no recourse other than giving birth to children you didn’t want, that’s oppression by a totalitarian dictator.
The author of the black book of communism tended to write include even people who stubbed their toe as “victims of communism” yea.
That author was so dubious that even two other co-authors of the book later denounced it.
kicks nightstand “curse you Marx”
Also included imaginary people as the possible descendants of dead people
Also the people killed by the Nazis
Honest question: where does the 1,6 billion figure come from?
Every death by Dutch capitalism (death from the slave trade, Colonialism/Colonial wars (Oceania, Africa, …), …)
plus
Every death by British empire’s capitalism (Irish genocide, Bengal famine, Slave trade, Colonialism/Colonial wars (India, Africa, North America, South east Asia, Oceania, Middle east, …) , Opium wars, Massacres against independence movements (India, …), …)
plus
Every death by French capitalism (Colonialism/colonial wars (North America, Caribbeans, Africa, South east Asia, …), Slave trade, Massacres against independence movements (Algeria, Haiti, …), …)
plus
Every death by Belgian capitalism (Colonialism/Colonial wars (Congo, …), Slave trade, Massacres against independence movements, …)
plus
Every death by United States’ capitalism (Colonialism/Colonial wars (Cuba, Hawaii, Philipines, North America, …), Massacres against independence movements (South east Asia, Oceania, Cuba, …), Slave trade, …)
plus
Every death by German capitalism (Nama and Herero genocide, Holocaust, Slave trade, …)
plus
Every death caused by preventable starvation, lack of access to water, healthcare.
List very much non-exhaustive.
If you add it all up you easily get over 1 Billion.
communism hasn’t been tried enough
A certain Mr. Lenin would like a word
A certain mr Stalin would like to interject for a moment
The CIA is not very happy about that
Didn’t communist China have that bad habit of genocide for a while?
They genocided opium yes.
no
Well that clears that right up.
glad to help
Oh ok
Provided you say that russia / china are in fact not communist, what would be a real existing (or past) communist country in which a large amount of people have lived?
Provided you say that russia / china are in fact not communist
The capitalist Russian Federation was formed in the 90s (leading to the economic disaster and the desperation that allowed Putin to rise to power). Russia is literally not, in any way, a socialist state for 35 years now.
The former Soviet Union, similarly to China today, was ruled by a communist party. This means the government is trying to move towards socialism, but it does not imply they’ve established a socialist mode of production - the goal of the socialist movement. This is a big source of ambiguity and confusion when people try to argue if countries “are/aren’t socialist”, that’s too vague, and even then you can’t just tell by the current situation - a government or society can follow a school or thought or ideology (socialist theory) before it achieves its goals (a socialist mode of production). “Communist” can refer to either the social movement (SU and PRC were obviously that) or the politico-economic reality (obviously neither has achieved that, let alone a socialist MoP),
Economies like China’s are a big source of debates among socialist theorists about whether it’s state capitalist, communist, or some mixed hybrid economy. Their economy has departed from capitalism-as-we-know-it, but still have the core features (capital, private property). But, regardless of their economy, they’re clearly a party trying to achieve communism, and therefore the PRC is a communist state that hasn’t achieved a communist mode of production.
TL;DR: Until we ask more specific questions, someone can say these countries are communist, someone else can say they’re not, and both are correct answers.
There are pre-industrial societies (including some like Zapatista territory in Chiapas, Mexico with 300,000 people) which some would call socialist or even communist, but I don’t think they’re worth bringing up when discussing whole modern countries - their situations aren’t as applicable to our conditions.
How westerners decide what they accept as communist:
Russia is no longer guided by Communist leadership, but both the PRC and former USSR are examples of countries led by Communists, with Socialist systems. Same with Cuba, the DPRK, Vietnam, Laos, and more.
Cuba seems to be a great country, people there most definitely have great lives. Freedom_of_the_press_in_Cuba Elections in cuba
Laos has been governed by the Lao People’s Revolutionary Party, under which non-governmental organisations have routinely characterised the country’s human rights record as poor, citing repeated abuses such as torture, restrictions on civil liberties and persecution of minorities.
DPRK = north korea
Sure are great countries you listed there…
For the record i dont want to doubt that marxism would be a nice experience but the lack of non ass, real countries makes me do so
If its so much better there how come you dont live there?
Linking a bunch of Wikipedia pages isn’t really a point, especially with propaganda outlets like HRW and Amnesty International featured prominently as sources. A country being Socialist doesn’t mean it’s a perfect wonderland, just that public ownership is the principle aspect of its economy.
By and large, though, these countries do much better than Capitalist peer countries, with higher life expectancies, literacy rates, lower poverty rates, and more. Further, they are usually the targets of large sanctions and embargoes, and subject to constant western propagandizing and myth making.
If you have a specific thing you’re curious about, we can go in depth and try to separate fact from fiction, or contextualize them. If not, and you’re just going to call countries “ass” because they protect their economies from US financial Capital, then there’s not much to discuss.
And I’d be down to live in China for a few years, or Vietnam, for sure. Wouldn’t want to move away from my family for the long run though.
Ah yes my favourite, all other information is propaganda.
In countries led by capitalism, you have a higher probability of documentation. With the communist nothing may be written down… even the dead Wagner soldiers in front of you in the grave may not be documented and never pay as killed. Fuck off with your filthy propaganda… Visit the mass graves in Africa etc caused by Russia!
You seem very confused in your beliefs, have you tried asking questions?
Russia is not communist, though?
Not officially. How many of Lenin’s statutes, for example, are still standing? Where is there an effort to distance oneself from the past? Oh wait… Putin wants the former status of the USSR with Russia… what else was there, oh yes, communism.
Really funny but when Russia then accuses other countries of “Nazis Nazis Nazis” this double standard of the Russians
The most disgusting thing is the attempt to distract. Away from the facts that communism is also responsible for millions of deaths, it is just not documented there but hushed up.
there is literally nothing about current russia that could be described as communist
Does Putin want to abolish private property, too?
Cause homie: If being imperialist and proud of your problematic past makes you communist, then I guess all hail the people’s republic of the USA. /s
Germany needs statues of Hitler again and swastikas everywhere, like the imperial eagle, to then say “no, we have nothing more to do with that”
So mega stupid
Communism is when Lenin statues, got it. /s
If you leave the symbols from the communist era standing. The statutes were still just a single example. You don’t even understand how you’re breathing…
TIL Germany is a feudalist country with all those statues of knights and kings standing around. /s
There are still Fascist sculptures in Germany, Fascist monuments in Italy, Axis monuments in Japan, Axis collaborator monuments in Ukraine, Axis collaborator monuments in the Baltics, and many other works and street names dedicated to either Axis personnel or their collaborators throughout the world.
Also, please stop marking your English comments as ‘Deutsch’. It’s annoying.
Memorials or to draw attention to the deeds. Not to honor it. That’s a huge difference.
Okay, here’s something easy for you: what did I write at the bottom of my comment? Can you tell me what I wrote? Tell me what I wrote.
Reading Lenin would really help you
“and communist revolutionary and Marxist theorist, leader of the Bolsheviks (1903-1924), head of government of the Russian SFSR (1917-1924) and the Soviet Union (1922-1924), of which he is considered the founder.”
Yea absolutely non communist… Sure… mf
But it was not about Lenin at all, but about not separating oneself from the communist past, even if today’s Russia is not a communist state.
Also, I had not read the end of your comment. The communist part of Russia’s history is the best one. But if you’re a tsarist or fascist I understand why you may think otherwise
Removed by mod
I was not the one to make that remark about Russia not being communist but it is true. What are you trying to say?
What? Lmao
What could possibly make you think we were arguing that Lenin is not socialist? There is a small hint in “Marxism-Leninism”
I think what this shows is that the idea of communism attracts the worst type of people as leaders. They enjoy being in charge of everything about a country, and/or can’t believe people don’t act the way communist theory says they would act under communism, so kill them for being corrupt traitors in order to fix the system.
