In 2014, the CIA supported a coup that removed the democratically elected president of Ukraine. Then Outlawed Socialist Parties. Just like the 20 year war in Afghanistan, which was utterly pointless and only to funnel money up to the top intelligence organizations and bleed public funds waqs a mechanism of imperialism. Also, mass immigration has a lot to do with climate change and endless imperialistic war. the United States wages War and uses proxies to weaken the global working class at the same time gaining more territory and resources. Pro-war liberals are disgusting because they live in a vacuum a storybook version of global affairs. Putin can suck on this D… But it doesn’t mean I am a friend of a Yankee. It’s funny, because if you’ve ever been to Europe, you know that America doesn’t have a left wing. In the United States, we just have neoliberalism or right wing fascist reactionaries. The United States is an imperialist empire and fascist are sometimes liberals. Fascist.are the useful idiots of empire. The Ukrainian people are suffering because they are just a piece of meat in a bigger game. Liberals didn’t even know about ukraine existed before all of this. And I remember during the Iraq Afghan war, you all wanted to save the women, the poor women. Liberals have always been the number one fascist elements in the United States. Russia won World War II, not you Yankee. It doesn’t matter which tribalistic version of a amerihog ideology that you subscribe to it is still just fascist reactionary ideology. And all of this information that I shared in my own way is easily accessible. I really think Americans are just stupid lazy assholes. Also, the culture wars, like, do you like gays? Do you not like gays? Should they have rights? Should they not have rights? Are low-level issues relative to the financial issues that most Americans deal with. But if people are angry, well, it’s like mountains of shame looking for someone to blame. Snobby, loudmouth, ignorant liberals, telling poor people how to think is how we got to Trump. And because most young men are incredibly poor, this is why the kids are alt right." Phil Ochs. Love me. Love me. I’m a liberal. " You have no class solidarity and you’re hyper-individualistic easily Co-opted… That’s why your society is falling apart. Well that and free market capitalism.
well, to be fair… remember the Cuban missile crisis?
Why does Russia, the largest country, not simply join NATO?
They don’t have to. They just interfere in our politics
They’ve tried on more than occasion, but been rejected.
It was considered at one point in the 90s.
Before both sides walked away.
Russia will never abandon its imperialist ideology without a Nuremberg style purge
And NATO. in sight of that imperialist ambition. Wanted nothing to do with Russia. There was also the matter of Russia being a mobster state.
Really was a consideration all the way up until mid 00’s. After 9/11 Russia warmed to NATO when they expanded the “war on terror” and even became a part of a permanent joint council.
Relations soured when Russia started dicking around in Ukraine and Georgia again in 04 and 08. Russia’s version of soft power is basically empowering local oligarchs by giving them cushy oil/mineral deals and have them get involved in their respective countries politics. A big part of the orange revolution was kicking out the pro Kremlin oligarchs.
Russia’s transition from soft to hard power has always been funding and supporting “separatist groups” like they did in Georgia and Ukraine. It’s always the same fucking playbook.
Boris Yeltsin sure did drink a lot, eh?
The community name checks out😉
Russia feels “threatened” by NATO.
It’s a defense pact. As long as you don’t attack nothing happens - so why would you feel threatened by that if you don’t plan on attacking those countries?
Okay, so Russia has been aggressive, but what about the time NATO attacked… uh… yeah.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_bombing_of_Yugoslavia
You were saying?
I’m not pretending that was a genius move from NATO or even that it was justified, but you didn’t have to read that far…
The bombings continued until an agreement was reached that led to the withdrawal of the Yugoslav Army from Kosovo
What about
NATO launched its campaign without the UN’s approval, stating that it was inter alia a humanitarian intervention.
and the fact that Yugoslavia had more than 1000 died and more than 5000 injured, while NATO’s loss was negligible?
Yeah it was a murderous dick waving move in an attempt to stop Yugoslavian aggression.
Who did Libya attack? Who did Syria attack? Who did Yugoslavia attack? Who did Palestine attack? Who did the Kurds attack?
Cue conspiracies about NATO strong-arming countries into joining to further the imperialist agenda of the United States (and their goal of making Russia a scapegoat for all the world’s problems). Yes they exist.
Oh yeah the US never strong-armed anyone, they just ask nicely.
Removed by mod
The Russian state uses nationalism to distract their own people from the state’s own corruption. It is a tried and tested obfuscation to maintain power and control over the masses.
Far worse in west. Russia is only side in this conflict that ever worked for peace, including an 8 year delay in repressing Ukraine’s/West nazi hatred.
It’s day 1167 of a 3 day SMO. Is putin bad at counting?
How about this for a thought
Western countries just negotiate with Russia and everyone agrees that Ukraine doesn’t join NATO because doing so destabilizes the entire region.
Instead everyone wants to shoehorn Ukraine into NATO even if it costs us all the risk of nuclear war.
Ukraine can still be protected and defended by western interests in other ways without involving NATO.
The big sticking point here is NATO … take it off the negotiating table, then you can see where the Russians are at.
Otherwise, there’s a war being fought with a steady stream of people dying because someone wants to join an exclusive club?
everyone agrees that Ukraine doesn’t join NATO because doing so destabilizes the entire region.
Lmfao yes, the very stable region around Ukraine will be checks notes …destabilized by joining a defense pact against the country that is actively invading and destabilizing the region.
Tbf, if Ukraine joins NATO, that gives NATO a way around the mountains to attack RU, so I can see why that would upset them…
…but yeah if RU wasn’t invading people all the goddamn time this would be a lot less of an issue lmao, RU is their own worst enemy.
Yeah, but that doesn’t destabilize the region. It might make Russia uncomfortable, but that’s not the same thing as regional instability.
Ukraine would have little interest in joining NATO if Russia wasn’t already making them uncomfortable, so even if it was instability, well, that egg was there before the chicken.
Instability is conflict. Only one nation started a conflict.
Putin could just not invade countries and nobody would want to join NATO.
The hate level of EU is too damn high. Obviously NATO membership for Ukraine was never serious, it was just nazi animation meant to diminish Russia. It failed in that Russian military production now higher than all of West, and they are replacing faster than losses.
The real path for peace is to get Russia to demilitarize as well as Ukraine. VdL needing a “peace” that makes Ukraine stronger than it is now, is nazi subhuman filth that must be exterminated from policy influence. But EU/western democracy brainwashing levels are just proven to be so extreme, that collapse is certain.
Ukraine wants to join NATO specifically to prevent Russia from invading again. What do you not get about that?
Ukraine can be protected without NATO? Like that deal they made where they gave up the nuclear missiles in exchange for security guarantees? Yeah, nice try. Once again you’re defending putin’s imperialism with weak excuses, what a surprise.
Ukraine doesn’t join NATO because doing so destabilizes the entire region
Damn I’m really excited for the mental gymnastics you’ll need to explain this lmaoo.
Here’s Biden performing these gymnastics all the way back in 1997 (in reference to the Baltics joining, but the argument applies verbatim to Ukraine):
“I think the one place, where the greatest consternation will be caused in the short term, for admission, having nothing to do with the merit, the preparedness of the country to come in, would be to admit the Baltic States now in terms of NATO-Russian, US-Russian relations. And if there was ever anything that was going to tip the balance were it to be tipped, in terms of a vigorous and a hostile reaction, I don’t mean military, in Russia, it would be that.”
Here’s George Kennan performing the same gymnastics:
“I think it is the beginning of a new cold war. I think the Russians will gradually react quite adversely and it will affect their policies. I think it is a tragic mistake.”
And there’s many, many more examples like this.
The simple fact of the matter is that we all saw this coming miles ahead, and we went ahead anyway. We threw Ukraine under the bus. Even moreso after the war started, publicly dangling the carrot of joining NATO in front of Ukraine while privately never intending to let them join.
So, it’s not “destabilizing the region”, it’s making russia mad.
I’m not sure what you think destabilizing means, but to me, having an angry state with nuclear weapons on my doorstep does not sound like a very stable situation.
They have been at war for 3 years. Nothing about the situation is stable.
In fact, letting Ukraine join NATO would bring stability, since that would prevent Putin from invading again.
But Putin doesn’t want that, because Putin wants to invade Ukraine even more.
I know, that’s what I’m saying, expanding NATO destabilized the region. And we knew that this would happen: see the quotes in my earlier post. These quotes were from years and years before even the invasion of crimes. They predicted more than a decade before that if we were to expand NATO further east in the direction of a nuclear armed rogue state, then we would be jeopardizing the lives of countless innocent civilians in the region. And these weren’t like some obscure off hand remarks either; this was common knowledge among foreign policy experts at the time.
Is it nice that there is a nuclear armed hyper capitalist stare sitting on the border of Ukraine? No, it sucks. But the way to deal with that is not by flipping of the Russians, slapping a big target on the back of Ukraine, and then running away. And this is exactly what we did by expanding NATO (again, see the Biden and Kennan quotes) and pretending that we were considering letting Ukraine join NATO. We failed them, over and over.
A country that is threatening with the use of nuclear missiles is never a stable situation. I don’t think that’s a good argument to avoid protecting vulnerable states from those countries.
Suppose you sit down next to a hardened criminal. Tough guy, unstable, face tattoos, MS-13 photoshopped on his knuckles, the works. Not an ideal situation, not very stable.
In comes Uncle Sam, telling the criminal “hey, criminal! Realitätsverlust thinks your mother is a hooker, and says they will kill your first-born son” and so on and so forth. I would argue (and so would Biden, and so would Kennan, and so would other foreign policy experts) that the situation is now even less stable.
Now, if the criminal gets up and punches you, they are completely in the wrong, and should be locked up, this goes without saying. But you cannot convince me that after all is said and done you wouldn’t be asking Uncle Sam what the fuck he was thinking aggravating the criminal like that on your behalf.
You fail to see something very obvious - that criminal might still kill me on a whim, because he feels like it. However, if uncle sam comes and points a loaded gun at the guy at any given time, I’m feeling a lot more safe because the guy might be more angry, but he doesn’t want to die.
What was said in 1997 is irrelevant in 2025 - russia was a different country back then. That was before the second chechen war, the invasion of georgia, the bombing of syria and the war against the ukraine. I’m pretty sure both parties would say something differnt these days.
“Proposing that a country join a defence pact only activated in case of an attack on the country is aggravating any potential aggressors”
Jesus Christ.
“Cartels murdering people in your town? Just don’t talk to the cops, that’s how you stay safe.”
Western countries just negotiate with Russia and everyone agrees that Ukraine doesn’t join NATO because doing so destabilizes the entire region.
Joining NATO would destabilize the entire region because… it would force Russia to invade Ukraine even harder?
Have you considered why Ukraine wants to join NATO so fucking badly?
The big sticking point here is NATO … take it off the negotiating table, then you can see where the Russians are at.
Invading Ukraine, like they did in 2014, long before NATO membership was a consideration for Ukraine?
The reason why Russia is so staunchly against Ukraine (or any other countries) joining NATO is because it makes it that much harder to start a landgrab war.
Otherwise, there’s a war being fought with a steady stream of people dying because someone wants to join an exclusive club?
There’s a war being fought with a steady stream of people dying because Russia invaded with the intent to murder Ukrainians and exterminate Ukraine as an independent nation.
Ukraine wanting to join the “Don’t invade me” club is hardly fucking surprising in light of that.
Ukraine wasn’t going to join NATO before the war, even after losing the Crimean peninsula.
Ukraine needs security guarantees because they have been invaded twice in a generation. What non-NATO guarantee is going to be acceptable to Ukraine?
That’s the biggest fuck up off it all. Just holding Crimea was enough for it to be impossible for Ukraine to join NATO, as there may be no disputed territories and they would have never given it up formally.
Putin should’ve backed out and regrouped a lot better and more carefully after his full scale invasion failed miserably. It’s been a nonsense keep going out of principle war for years now and the biggest loser is Russia (it’s hard to even calculate the impact of a lost generation of young men + loss of influence world wide because of how crappy weapons systems turn out to be in real war instead of demonstrations.
Meanwhile there’s an enormous diaspora of Ukrainians growing in many western European countries now and they became de facto part of the club a lot stronger and faster than anyone could have ever imagined before 2022.
That’s the biggest fuck up of all such regimes. Fascists can never say “it’s enough”. There is no “we are done, cool down the war machine, lets invest in domestic infrastructure.”
You can’t become a fascist by ever being satisfied with what you have, and you can’t remain in power as a fascist if you don’t keep pushing pain and terror. You just have to keep redlining the engine of human suffering until it finally stalls and breaks down.
Putin is held hostage by his own power and ideology, and can never stand down or step away with his head still on his shoulders.
To be fair, the Russians do have an answer to that: Western secret services like the CIA have been infiltrating those countries’ governments and/or orchestrated anti-Russian, pro-Western coups.
To be fair yet again, that answer is a load of bullshit, those democratic governments have plenty of genuine popular support, the people in these countries are anti-Russian because of personal experiences with the Russian state, not just because of propaganda, and the USA, while influential to an outsized degree, is obviously not just “calling the shots” on the entire western world. Things would look very different if they were.
the USA, while influential to an outsized degree, is obviously not just “calling the shots” on the entire western world. Things would look very different if they were.
They would look exactly the same: Every political party devoted to US empire/NATO. Complete intolerance for voices for peace.
Speaking of “calling the shots”, the EU and/or UK narratives are even funnier. If some country in Europe takes action against Russian government:
- And the US agrees with that: “US made their puppet do that”
- And the US disagrees or obviously not involved: “Ha, US can’t control their corrupt puppets!”, or “The anglosaxon deepstate strikes again”
I’m way more worried of the anglo-dane deep state. It’s so deep some think it vanished an age ago, but I know they are still out there, just biding their time
Well, I innfiltrated Denmark so I hope to find the deepvikingstate jarl, befriend him and affect his decisions.
Europe and Russia fighting among themselves, with Europe paying for it all, is CIA/US empire’s wet dream.
Europe was trying not to fight with Russia (although it’s time to, and I’m speaking as a Russian), but if you only watched TV, you would never know.
Europe, whose politicians are all appointed by CIA/US empire, has been imbued with a hatred for Russia. Ukraine support was a manifestation of that hatred, and US empire sycophancy. That Trump would like Russia’s passivity for a war on Iran, doesn’t stop the Russophobia programming in EU, and their scrambling to derail any end to the war.
Western secret services like the CIA have been infiltrating those countries’
Yeah, that’s serious cultural appropriation against the russians.
And the thing is, many European countries don’t even want to join NATO specifically, they want to join the EU-- a non-military, supranational organisation. However, the Russian government see the EU and NATO as one and the same, even though many EU members are not NATO members themselves and don’t want to be.
To continue to be fair, that whole claim is just DARVOing about what Russian spies are doing to the west.
They spent two decades saying this and then installed a puppet dictator in america lmao
Lolllllllllll… Fk I hope we can laugh about this in 10-20 years.
Western secret services like the CIA have been infiltrating those countries’ governments and/or orchestrated anti-Russian, pro-Western coups.
Even if, unless you’re planning offensive actions, you shouldn’t be worried about countries joining a defensive military structure.
you shouldn’t be worried about countries joining a defensive military structure
Non credible kool aid. NATO is an organization for pure evil to attempt to diminish Russia, and will not restrict itself from saying such absurd lies in order to inflict demonism.
Nice ragebait lmao.
Would you not feel threatened if you were Russia? Map of US military bases:
Imagine if China or Russia did that, and then started bombing random countries.
On mobile, apologies if it’s not the best image
Not really OP’s point but the map of countries with US military installations is still impressive, as can be seen here:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_military_installations
with at least 128 military bases located outside of its national territory as of July 2024
OP is not as wrong as the replies suggest.
OP is getting mocked for posting a map claiming that there are US military bases in Beijing and Moscow, not because anyone thinks there aren’t a lot of US bases around the world
Map of US military bases
Not a single pin inside US soil
Think this one through better next time, or validate your sources lmao
Bro have you even taken a look at that fucking map … there’s one dot in moscow of all places, the other one in beijing. That’s a map of embassies you fucking tankie moron.
You really Did Your Own Research on this one, huh?
Cute. Now post map of every military base that switzerland doesn’t own in the world. Why isn’t switzerland feeling threatened and invading neighbouring countries, threatening genocide and nukes? I mean the bases are right there!
To be fair, Swiss never gave up on general conscription, got strong army and will forever remain somewhat weary of all of their neighbours, neighbours who have all blobbed out at least once before in history, except Liechtenstein :')
Oh no, slare swiss saying “kill literally everyone but swiss” like russia is?
Wary of their neighbours. When Switzerland gets weary of their neighbours, those neighbours need to start worrying
That looks like a map of us embassies, not military bases.
Nah, the US has military bases in Moscow and Beijing, that’s how powerful they are
LMAOOO
I JUST REALIZED HOW FUCKING DUMB THIS IS!
remember when the russians made a huge fuss about “US-Soldiers in Ukraine” because US Soldiers protect the US-embassies around the world?
This is that! This is so fucking disingenious!
Imagine if China or Russia did that, and then started bombing random countries.
Lol yeah can you imagine?
What if Russia had military bases in other countries like Armenia, Belarus, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Moldova, Tajikistan, Ukraine, Central African Republic, Egypt, Eritrea, Madagascar, Mozambique or Sudan?
Imagine if they had bombing campaigns in random countries like Syria, Georgia, Libya, Central African Republic or Mali.
Also imagine what would happen if the US would bomb one of their own cities like Minneapolis or Tulsa Oklahoma so thoroughly that it would become known as one of the most destroyed cities in modern warfare
Don’t get me wrong, the US is an imperialistic power hungry repressive country which imposes its will on plenty of smaller countries, but let’s not pretend that Russia is better in any way, shape or form, they’re just not as successful in exacting power outside of their sphere of influence.
Obviously none of that would ever happen because Russia isn’t a western imperialist power
Imagine if China or Russia did that
Yeah, imagine if Russia started invading all its neighbors. What a wild hypothetical.
Hey ivan, tell your buddies to stop smoking near ammo depots and oil refineries.
those sneaky american put a military base even in moscow and beijing without anyone noticing! but alas the operative costs led them to demolish all the bases in their own homeland!
>Be Putin
>Invade Ukraine to prevent NATO expansion.
>2 more countries join NATO.
>MFW
If I am from the Russian establishment, I would totally give up Sweden and Finland neutrality for Ukraine, it is not like Sweden and Finland were neutral at that point anyways. However, militarily speaking Ukraine is far more vital for Russia security. All multiple invasion attempts from Western powers to Russia were through Ukraine for a reason; one can more large amounts of troops and equipment overnight; try that through Finland’s mountainous forests.
Finland though, surprised me, 80 years of neutrality that allowed Finland to prosper like it never did in history and become the envy of the world, and now, the Finns decided to give it up with almost no debate. It is like Singapore now decides to join militarily fully with US and break all links with China… I have a feeling Asians will be far more pragmatic than the Finns and Swedes.
the Finns decided to give it up with almost no debate.
I wonder if there was any event that make them worried about being invaded.
I wonder if there was a entire mediated apparatus gave then that impression!
Finland lost 1/3 of its territory to Russia so they, more than anyone knew the Russia threat. Now, they found that the the main drive for Russia conquest in their lands was mostly for security, not land. Once Finland gave up and reasured Moscow of not any military alliance with the West in the 1940s, they found amazing prosperity ever since, even when the Soviets were in plenty of militaristic campaigns abroad, nothing compared with today. Now is not different, now I mean, until Finland joined NATO. For first time in close to a century, the border with Finland is permanently closed and heavily militarized and Russian missiles pointing at the Scandinavian country. Is that a win?
It may not be fair, it is not, but countries like Cuba, Ukraine, Finland, Singapore, Switzerland, Andorra, etc should evaluate pragmatically if is best to keep neutrality (and have a a strong national defense capable of giving a fight, even if not capable of wining). or join an alliance. Singapore, Switzerland and till recently Finland choose right. Cuba, Ukraine and now Finland choose what they choose and now they pay the lack of pragmatism.
For Putin Ukraine, as a divided country it was, it was fine as independent since its Russian speakers would never allow a constitutional change to join NATO. However, after the western fomented coup, and millions of Ukrainians in the East desposesed from vote ever since was what made Moscow intervene. It was Afghanistan’s CIA playbook of the late 70s all over again.
You’re an even better western propagandist than you must think I am. You say the west basically forced putin’s hand in getting vast quantities of soldiers and soviet vehicles blown up in disorganized pushes, thus making Russia infinitely more vulnerable than it was prior to 2022? Not to mention…
western fomented coup
Support for joining the EU was already high. Yanukovych won the 2010 election promising closer economic ties to the EU. His sudden refusal to sign a trade agreement resulted in protests. Violent crackdown on protests resulted in revolution. For you to believe the west caused this, you would have to believe they psyop’d 70+% of the Ukrainian population into leaning towards the EU, then somehow convinced the Russian puppet to lie to get elected, then set off the aforementioned events.
Ehhhh, it was always just an excuse, just like all the other reasons that they invented. Nazis, NATO, will of the people, whatever bullshit he came up with, the real reason was always because there’s was money to be made by owning their land.
I wonder if they did the math on the cost of this war vs the benefits of the money to be made? Is it still worth it as this point? Sunk cost fallacy at this point?
I wonder if they did the math on the cost of this war vs the benefits of the money to be made
If they did, they are shit awful at math.
I think putin just got senile and wanted to restore the glory of the soviet union tbh. People get really weird when they get old.
Nah, he took up a new hobby during lockdown, most people did sourdough or a language, he did an invasion
It was a calculated risk, but
they are shit awful at math
3.5 roentgen. Not great, not terrible.
3.6 even
I know, it’s just so fun to engage on that level because the logic is truly incomprehensible. Like pretend the US or NATO actually wanted to invade Russia or whatever they’re trying to imply by saying that shit. They’re feeling a million times better about it now than 10 years ago since Russia has been revealed as a paper tiger, with soviet vehicle and ammo stocks depleted and nearly a million casualties for a chunk of land, not to mention the fact that they got counter-invaded and it took 7 MONTHS to recapture their own fucking land.
In our pretend land where someone actually wants to invade Russia for some reason, they’re gong to identify the fact that they could break the entire Russian offensive (probably the entire military) with a single carrier group, and do that.
Yes, Putin squandered away a lot of his power with this war and the inability to adjust the plan after it failed (the historic traffic jam north of Kiev). But the issue always was, is, and will be: the wildcards. They got nukes. They might not work well, but who knows. It makes it technically impossible for any nation to ever “break the entire russian offensive” without some serious gambling.
Xi gets pissed whenever Putin threatens with nuke and tells Putin to stop with the bluff. That being said, it is a sign that Russia’s actual influence is eroding because of the war, and that Russia’s sovereignty is slowly being captured by China.
Even historians in 1000 years will not comprehend this brilliant move by mr. president, in eyes of those uninitiated to the complex art of geopolitics it may seem like the dumbest blunder.
