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The fact they just censored the nipples still 🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂
I’ll always remember this one time in the 1990s when my family and I were watching some medical documentary on cable TV. There was footage of a trans woman getting top surgery, and they showed the medical details and cutting of her uncovered chest with no problem, but the instant the breast implant was slipped beneath the patient’s skin they blurred out the nipple because it became unsuitable for unedited broadcast at that moment.
i think about that moment a lot.
No true Scotsman? 🤷♀️
Nyuk nyuk nyuk.Fuck yes.
Trust me when I say this: none of the right-wing media/politicians, will understand that they’ve made any points on behalf of the protestors by blurring the “men’s” nipples.
Also, saying men can go around topless but not women, is sexist. Any such law should be removed. We should all be equal in the eyes of the law. With that said: that shouldn’t imply that women should go around topless. It should just be legally allowed. I’m a guy, but I don’t think I need to explain to anyone the potential complications from going around topless as a woman… Whether trans or not.
The whole situation is dumb. Society needs to do better. We’re all people. Let’s keep that in mind and treat everyone the same, based on the fact that they are a human person in society. No legal separation of sex, gender, race, religion, or anything else. If you are a human person, you should have the same rights and freedoms as every other human person.
I’m a guy, but I don’t think I need to explain to anyone the potential complications from going around topless as a woman… Whether trans or not.
It’s normal and fairly mundane for men to go topless in virtually all societies, however, there are a good number of cultures where it is also normal for women to be topless. If it is normal and mundane for women to be topless, then it becomes a non-issue eventually. It’s only racy because we’re trained in our culture to find it racy.
You won’t find disagreement here.
The fact of the matter is that the change won’t happen overnight; and there’s already a disproportional number of assaults against women, even if they’re fully dressed when the assault begins.
While the argument of “she was asking for it” relating to what someone is wearing, is entirely bullshit and without any merit, and the fact that it’s on the male culture to… Idk, not be rapists, and not encourage rapists and rapist tenancies; I know plenty of women that don’t want to risk encouraging such behavior against themselves. Whether they should need to or not isn’t material to the point. They don’t feel safe otherwise.
I’m not going to tell anyone what to wear. I will say that maybe people just shouldn’t rape other people, regardless of circumstances. No, not maybe. They definitely should not, under any circumstances, ever rape anyone. Just don’t rape people.
Anyways. It would be a long road to get to the place you propose, and a lot of violence would likely happen before we would see the ideal that you are describing. I wish it was different, but I can’t change the world, I can only change myself.
In the late 90s or early aughts here in Canada women challenged and won the right to go topless as well as men. I can’t recall seeing in person any women exercising that right myself, and it won’t surprise me if the religions conservatives here have managed to overturn that directly or indirectly, but as a teenager/young adult i thought it was cool at the time that Canada fixed that inequality
Didn’t really have a point here just felt like sharing
OH! Finally! A chance to use my knowledge acquired from scrolling wikipedia while procrastinating! That law hasn’t been overturned and is still, well, law. Of course every once in a while some clueless cop (because why should somebody enforcing the law, know the law sigh) will ask a topless sunbather to cover up. Here’s the article.
True, however we are also trained to be everything. Literally whole law, moral system and everything about human society is subjective and made up. Should we pursue to deconstruct this subjectivity? No it is what allows us to function. However we should pursue equality in an egalitarian sense of every member of society.
Our subjective and made up rules should be equal for all members of the society and where they cannot be because they meet biological objectivity there they need to be humane and in best interest of the person in light of law so that the person can live with dignity and possess full autonomy unless judged to be stripped away from such
Saying ‘women shouldn’t go around topless’ isn’t allowing society to function. It’s sexist and demonizes women’s bodies in a way that promotes violence against women. Deconstruct your society or don’t, but don’t be surprised when you end up in a death camp because you thought it was fine to give second class person status to half your population.
It’s like on the last place of my problems but if this is what most people want then we should obviously change it. However something tells me that it’s not a problem and most people do not care if it wasn’t ever even voted on.
Loud minority screams “I wanna go naked on the streets” and honestly it’s one of the more ridiculous things. Let’s focus on real problems such as abortion and whole birth giver societal asymmetry and how to fairly address it to make society more egalitarian.
No one is seriously thinking “oh no I have to put my shirt on before going out, this is fascism” men and women alike aren’t going bare chested in the city in the streets because this is how we agreed. No one wants to see your saggy breasts and no one wants to see disgusting male beer bellies.
Go to the beach and there go topless all you want. That’s what I do anyway. We collectively agreed that this is where it is fine to do so. Or on your property, you can walk even completely naked all you want.
I know my one neighbor is every morning going naked on the balcony and has a huge cock so I guess it’s kind of confidence thing too. Generally he is built rather nicely to look at. Still his balcony so he can do whatever he wants no matter how attractive and I can go naked on my balcony too
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I’ve never bought this notion that recognizing trans women as women in turn affects women’s rights or systems that support women. That’s like saying just because my 23 and me came back 1% African we should stop DEI because if everyone is diverse then it doesn’t make sense to support diversity. (I swear to God, if I get Trump jokes—).
Life is complicated and we’ve managed to evolve systems to handle it before, we can continue. If I can have 3 ways to sort my 401k or do my taxes then I can have a world where I’m a feminist and that includes trans women
Why can’t trans women count as women? Trans women have historically faced even higher rates of discrimination than cis women.
Is it illegal for women to be topless?
I’m pretty sure it’s not. It’s not common for women to ever be topless in Scotland, but it’s not explicitly illegal to be naked (men or women). Only more vague public decency and harassment laws. If a woman in Scotland was topless sunbathing, they’d definitely get some looks, but I think it’s very unlikely the police would intervene.
Yeah. That seems sexist.
Free the nipple.
Genuine question, how is it sexist? Is their no acknowledgment of biological differences between men and women as a general rule (trans issues being more of an exception to the rule)? We acknowledge differences in general in regards to sports, bathrooms, fitting rooms, the way clothes are made, people’s consumption of pornography, magazines and media. Why on this point are we ignoring that all of those things ls are real and happen and pretending there’s no difference?
Genuine answer: I’m specifically speaking to how men and women are treated as a matter of law.
Laws should not differentiate between men, women, sexual orientation or identity, sexual preferences, kinks, lifestyles, etc.
If a thing is illegal, it should be illegal for everyone, or noone. In this case, the law says that it is legal to go topless unless you are a woman. It specifically cites, as a rule of law, that women are to be treated differently on purpose. That, by definition, is sexist.
Almost all of the other examples you provided are matters of social norms, comforts, and tropes. Nothing else you mentioned has the same weight as the rule of law.
Women have different clothing and different clothing styles than men, they’re shaped differently so we make clothes that fit the female form better, just like we have clothes that fit the male form better.
Different washrooms, I disagree with; we should have gender neutral bathrooms and put all this transphobia bullshit about what bathroom people use, to bed. Bluntly: the bathroom isn’t a social gathering, people generally are not walking around unclothed or partially clothed in the common areas of even a gendered bathroom. You go in there to resolve your bodily needs to expel waste. Get in, do what you need to do, and get out. With a little more effort in isolating stalls, an ungendered bathroom is the best option. You don’t have a “men’s” and “women’s” bathroom at home… They don’t pointlessly gender bathrooms in planes or busses, among many other places, so making bathrooms that are meant for larger groups in public spaces, gendered, does not really logically make any sense at all.
There’s a ton more I could say about this or many other things but simply: I feel like I’ve addressed your question.
Let me know if you need any further clarifications.
It is sexist because you’re treating them differently based on arbitrary cultural standards. Why are you pretending made up social constructs are real? We shouldn’t be consistently sexist. We should want equality for all.
Ok. So if it’s based on arbitrary cultural standards that are made up, wouldn’t the new version just be a different made up social construct that we would pretend is real as well? Except we would just be pretending that boobs aren’t real? Or have no relevance
arbitrary cultural standards that are not applied equally are sexist.
If the rule changed as to be everyone has to cover up their chests it would become sexist to men because men don’t even have breasts.
Men have chests. Fat men also have breasts.
But it seems the defining feature is the nipple, and both sexes have those.
Men and women both have nipples. The difference is that women might need to pull them put to feed a baby. If we want to treat them differently, should it not be reversed?
The only reason to cover women’s nipples is because the gender in power may have hormonal changes that they are unwilling to control.
I’m sorry I’m not following. What’s the “gender in power?” Is that societal or the individual?
The patriarchy
Because the sexualization of the female nipple is the only reason it is illegal to bare it in public. There is no universal or biological reason to ban it, just a cultural conditioning.
Yes, I guess what I’m asking is are we pretending that this “conditioning” isn’t a real thing? I also read recently (sorry if this is wrong) that there was a study done on arousal of breasts between societies where they are covered up vs where they are not. It found the level of arousal remained consistent.
Yes, I guess what I’m asking is are we pretending that this “conditioning” isn’t a real thing? I also read recently (sorry if this is wrong) that there was a study done on arousal of breasts between societies where they are covered up vs where they are not. It found the level of arousal remained consistent.
Why wouldn’t having to deal with that arousal be the problem and responsibility of the aroused instead of, by default and preemtively, limiting the rights of any prospective and involuntary “arousee” in existence?
If arousal isn’t a real thing and it’s the fault of the person being aroused, would that suggest total nudity should be ok as well?
If arousal isn’t a real thing and it’s the fault of the person being aroused, would that suggest total nudity should be ok as well?
Remember this whole discussion is about discrimination. So what you’re asking is “In contexts where full male body nudity is arbitrarily deemed acceptable, why wouldn’t full female body nudity be acceptable as well?”
And the answer, of course, is that there’s no reason to make a distinction, is there?
Some of these users are unironically repeating rape cultural word for word and in this case with the add on of “I’m just asking questions”. Thanks for sticking it to them. =)
Some of these users are unironically repeating rape cultural word for word and in this case with the add on of “I’m just asking questions”. Thanks for sticking it to them. =)
I really don’t think that’s a useful mindset. We’re all just people here, having conversations and - ideally - socratic dialogues. What could be gained by sticking anything to anyone?
If women everywhere suddenly felt that men showing their faces was arousing, should they be required to cover that too?
I’m sorry but I don’t feel that’s a reasonable hypothetical. Society would be so different in so many ways if that were true that the time line would look completely different, who know we probably wouldn’t have made it to now. And yes hypothetically if this did happen all of a sudden there would be lots of calls to do something about the new situation
Why should a nipple be hidden only if it is a female one. Why would man have the right to walk without t-shirts and woman be punished for the same walk?
Yet imo it should be the other way. Males need to cover up to. Lets see how fast they start complaining.
I think there’s less of a need for men to cover up. That not to say I don’t agree with your point entirely. While shirtless men do seem to arouse women and gay men, correct me if if wrong, it’s seems like it’s more of a overall thing, where with women the arousal is mostly centred around the breasts themselves and the nipples.
I think it’s also more appropriate to say feminine breasts, I know this opinion can vary person to person but most people can agree man boobs generally don’t excite people, it’s the muscle and tone that women find attractive. This can apply to feminine breasts but I think it’s generally more accepted that they are more likely to arouse or at least be interesting.
It is not the womans fault that a guy gets exited. It is not her duty to cover up to make sure his weak mind has a bit more ease. It is his to control his thinking and doing.
And btw why is males make woman/gay exited a good / allouwable ( is that a word ? ) thing and female nipples make man exited a bad one. 2 different rules because of sexe… That is sexist.
I don t think i would go naked shopping or so. The fact that some woman who want to can not do that is the thing that is wrong. Ergo hide the male body to => no more differences.
There are differences, but there is no need for different rules.
Can you, or are you willing to, say outright, why it should be illegal?
Because I think having breasts is different to not having them and that human arousal and disgust (may be a strong word) is real and that as a general rule it’s appropriate and even beneficial to exclude the extremes of these things from day to day life unless the individual wants to opt in. I suppose a line has to be drawn somewhere and given that there is a real reaction across most of society it’s a reasonable place to draw it.
So because men are more horny than women, women should habe fewer freedoms?
And what about tribal societies where everybody is bare chested all the time? Do you believe all nen there are horny all the time because the See female breasts every day?
I can see this point, I’m just not sure going back to what is generally considered a primitive culture is really worth the trouble to get there. We don’t live like that any more. Can we at least beat the billionaires first?
A living edge case. I love it.
I guess the only solution is to free the nipple
It would have been icing on the cake if trans men would have been in the same protest, also topless, but they weren’t censored lol
yeah, but they could have been arrested
To many in alt right groups, trans men don’t exist.
How do you mean?
Whenever there is an issue with anything relating to genders it’s always about trans women, not trans men.
They talk about trans women in women’s bathrooms, but never trans men in men’s bathroom. If they wanted your original gender, then you’d have trans men in women’s bathrooms. Basically someone that looks like a guy in the women’s bathroom.
They talk about trans women dominating women’s sports, even though there are literally none. But what about a sport where being a women, i.e. smaller and more flexible, is a benefit. Something like gymnastics.
Women are also on average a better shot, yet we don’t see discussions around trans men dominating gun or bow related sports.
There are many other examples, but generally the right always tries to attack trans women. It has to do with macho “manosphere” and equating anything less manly as a weak liberal thing.
Maybe there is another side to this toxic macho “manosphere” you mention.
After all, as a baseline men are by nature predisposed and culturally conditioned to protect and be considerate to women.
Despite all lamentation, Chivalry is not dead for some.
So obviously the sanctity of a woman’s restroom is more highly valued than that of a men’s bathroom. After all, women are more vulnerable and more often targeted in that way.
So the debate tends to skew towards women spaces, as those are more likely to cause public discord if disturbed.
Rarely are men stepping up on the soap crate to defend their own spaces. Because after all, they are strong enough to take any number of “inconveniences” and disadvantages because to admit to struggling with them would be weakness.
I’m not saying it’s fair, or right, or how it should be. But maybe that bias isn’t always driven by hostility. Maybe it’s just that society still places more weight on protecting women, while expecting men to grit their teeth and deal with it. Even when those same men help reinforce that standard among themselves.
It doesn’t make the imbalance okay, and it doesn’t mean the outrage is consistent. But it might explain why all the noise gets focused on trans women. It’s not just transphobia, it’s the scaffolding of gender roles, still quietly deciding who gets defended, and who’s expected to tough it out.
It seems absurd to conceptualize a “chivalrous transphobe”. But we are all more than just one label.
I agree, had thought of that before - it’s cognitive dissonance along the lines of “do I protect this person (who appears to be a woman but I’m not certain) or not (because they might not be)?” If society moved more to a model of ‘help people who need help’ it might improve matters.
I don’t really agree, because these people will absolutely defend their fragile “man” places. The manosphere is not something I just made up. It’s a complex network of influencers and media types. It’s why we have people such as Joe Rogan and Andrew Tate leading a generation of young men. It’s a gross perversion of what the right calls “being a real man”. It’s been discussed by phycologists and experts on men’s mental health. You should read up on it, but I warn you it’s a deep rabbit hole that may just piss you off how interconnected it is and supported by fascist authoritarians.
I mean, cis dudes would work in that context too, no?
Not if the point is to make the government acknowledge their gender.
Fucking Genius
SOMETIMES A CHECKMATE IS JUST SO FUCKING POETIC.
Butters: weiners out!
For real, this is such a great move. Oh sure, the government could just ban nipples in general, but good luck enforcing that when it gets mildly warm and every scottish man rips their shirt off
is that the “red wave” they’ve been warning us about?
TAPS AFF
Nips oot.
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You too. It’s fun.
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Brother the fact you use those terms indicates you are an insecure pos. Can bet my last pound you wouldn’t talk to me like that to my face, just because I’ve got empathy for days doesn’t mean I’m above putting a bigot on the ground.
Be better my guy, if only for the sake of your mental health. Hatred is a killer and will just drag you down.
If you ever want to chat civilly about anything hmu, I got you. I believe people can change if given some compassion and actually interact with the people you hate.
Lol, you know it! I moved to a purple pearl in a very deeply red State. I’m gigantic so I can get away with saying what I want. Some little college aged typical Rogan bro tried going into the typical litter box bullshit. I pulled up the actual story, and eventually asked him how many trans people he interacted with regularly knowing one was in that very bar. And he damn sure didn’t raise his voice when I showed him how dumb all his bullshit was. These people are scared and weak without a screen in between them and the world.
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Legendary behavior. Bigots can choke on it
A lot of them do.
I haven’t thought about that gag from that show in a while. Thanks for posting this, was nice to be reminded of it
Duh and or hola
Katy Montgomerie a really good interview with one of the women at the protest: https://youtu.be/wbA0q0eqYnM
Malicious compliance at its best.
Took me a while to even notice they are censored, and not just weird looking
I cannot imagine being a cop in this country the laws are just totally arbitrary and you’d have to enforce them even though they make zero sense.
It gets even mader. If you take one step over the border into England, being topless suddenly becomes legal regardless of gender or birth sex.
however it is not an offence for a man or a woman to be topless in England and Wales, so long as the person has not taken off their clothes with the intention of shocking or upsetting others.
Does this mean you can stand on the south side of hadrians wall and wave your titties at the Scots without legal repercussions?
UK Supreme Court:
“We now rule that while men and women are allowed to be topless, this doesn’t apply to trans women. Trans women, and only trans women, can be tried for being topless.”
There is even a special ordinances for Newcastle that say that the moment the temperature exceeds 12°C taking your top off becomes mandatory.
Am Newcastle. Can confirm.
