https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tankie
For those who want to learn more about the possible origin of memes like this
Is there anyone remaining who doesn’t know after the million posts about tankies?
I knew the term, but not the origin or its original meaning, so yes.
There is always somebody who doesn’t. Doesn’t hurt to leave information for people to learn who haven’t already
I’m not making fun of people not knowing things, I’m pointing out that there are way too many posts about tankies, far beyond any “tankie problem” that lemmy is imagined to have.
You don’t negotiate with a burglar who breaks in and steals your shit. You shoot them between the eyes.
Anyone who calls for a compromise is either Russian or a complete fucking idiot.
You shoot people in the face for stealing? Sheesh.
No, you shoot them because you have no way of knowing why they’re in your home or what they’ll do.
Good luck with that. I would advise you to get a very good attorney and have a robust bank account.
Or just live in a stand your ground/castle doctrine state.
New York is a castle doctrine state. That guy who shot those kids who pulled into his driveway, his private property, just got convicted and is going to prison for a long time.
Be careful, folks. The dude who enters your home could just be a drunk. Use your brain before bullets.
You mean the guy that shot someone who wasn’t breaking into his house or being a threat was found guilty? Color me shocked that an event wasn’t protected by a law that didn’t cover what happened.
You prove my point.
No, you lock yourself in a defensive position and call the police. Hunting baddies in your dark house is statistically more likely to result in you shooting your kid who tries to sneak out.
Or you just die, because the home invader has the drop on you.
Its always cute to see people mind-palace how they would John Wick their way out of an armed conflict.
Condescend to me harder daddy I’m almost there.
Home invasions aren’t stealing, they’re a threat of violence and personal harm.
If you’re just looking to steal you do it when no one is home.
It saddens me how much right-wing gun rhetoric has infiltrated the left.
It saddens me to see leftists left toothless in the face of those that would hurt them. Yet yall insist on being victims and relying on the same cops that oppress you. Total pacifism has a more accurate name, “I like letting fascists win.”
Buddy, if it comes to the point where my family needs to shoot back against the things you mentioned, then we already lost long before that.
Like, if you just took half the amount of time it takes psyching yourself up and purchasing your ammunition and channeled that into – you know – civic duty and getting your friends and family to vote, then that would be a far more productive use of your time to avert fascism.
So just take it a step back, okay? Use your brain over bullets.
Besides, guns don’t make you safer.
Liberals aren’t the left.
This trope is tiresome.Your fallacies are:
- No True Scot / Gatekeeping
- Strawman
You’re ignorant and you don’t know what words mean, including fallacy.
Which is, in fact, an identifying feature of a liberal.
Oh? Did you need me to walk you through it, buddy?
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Where did I say anything about liberals? (Herein lies the strawman)
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I just had a far-leftist espouse arming up because Karl Marx said so; so whether they’re Liberal or Leftist, the point remains.
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Liberalism In the United States has traditionally either been short-hand for social liberalism, or the polar-opposite to conservatism. As Howard Zinn points out in The Case for Socialism, Left and Liberalism were used interchangeably throughout American history and distanced itself from that of right-wing conservatism.
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Do you speak on behalf of all liberals and leftists? <— Herein lies the gatekeeping / No True Scot fallacy.
Classic over-confidence of a sub-22-year-old tankie.
But viva la revolution, amirite. Send me a screenshot of your Che Guevera poster.
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Which is why you’ve put a security door on your bedroom, right? A sane home defense strategy has nothing to do with protecting your stuff, and should focus on creating a defensive enclave.
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For stealing shit from a supermarket, or a bank, or something of that sort? Nah, fuck the corporations. For invading someone’s inner sanctum and defiling their most important space? Justified.
If you say so.
Right, the more accurate analogy would be someone breaking into your house, shooting your grandfather, raping your wife, and trying to take your children away as slaves. And also stealing your stuff.
They valued stuff more than their lives yes. I’m not taking the chance they decide to come back or get violent.
Actually YOU valued stuff more than THEIR lives. So close.
truly spoken by someone who has never actually had to deal with anything close to this in reality.
you hear glass break and you what, help them fill up the van and make them a sandwich, because they need it more than you and are of no threat?
Yes. Those are your two options. You’re a genius! You hear glass break, you start blasting!!
Most American-ass shit ever.
I like how you don’t have a real response, just insults, Id try to guess where you are from, but I’m not a generalizing bigot.
I have no clue why this stranger is in my home threatening those I care about, all I know is they decided breaking into my home and are possibly violent.
🤷♂️ I’m not about to send the message that people can come to my house and take my shit.
Yeah but it should be conditional imo. If they’re armed or you have suspicion they could be armed, then kill them. Otherwise, maybe aim for the leg or shoulder?
If you’re shooting, shoot to kill. There’s not a non-lethal place to shoot a human being.
But yeah, jumping straight to the gun might be a bit much for some guy rummaging through your living room drawer. Russia is more like a hardened criminal who’s been threatening you every night for the past month busting down your door and beating your kid to death.
Humans very regularly survive gunshots. About twice as many people are injured by gunshots as those who die from them each year in the USA, even when suicides are included. My philosophy is to minimize harm and suffering whenever possible, even at risk to myself.
But yeh Fuck Russia.
Surviving a gunshot does not mean that you were not shot in a place that could have been fatal. You’re literally describing Survivorship Bias
You were going to kill them regardless, why tf do you care if the other places you shoot them have a chance of fatality? Minimizing harm is all about reducing chances of undue death or suffering.
The way Russia would negotiate a burglary:
I get to keep everything I stole, in exchange you won’t call the cops, and throw away your alarms and weapons. You will also promise, that you won’t be able to defend yourself the next time.
Can’t it be both?
800 years of russian state imperialism isnt enough to convince some people that the rest of Eastern Europe has truly had enough of one of their own imposing their big brother geopolitics on the rest of them. Every shitty empire has their MO, for russia, its always been a game of lies, deceit, and muddying the waters of truth. The guy in the middle is someone whos been drinking water from a poisoned well somewhere.
Eastern Europe has truly had enough of one of their own imposing their big brother geopolitics on the rest of them.
Yeah! That’s the US’s job!
“Hurr durr, It’s bad when the US do it but it’s fine if Russia does it”
“Hurr durr, it’s unacceptable to us white liberals when everybody but the US does it."
Are you still here, white supremacist? Have you been priced out of the copium market, perhaps?
When you call a marxist a liberal, we know your brain is soup.
So you don’t understand what the term “Marxist” actually means?
Color me surprised… do you need me to explain it to you, liberal? Fine - I will.
Marxist simply means that you understand capitalism through a Marxist lens - that’s it. Nothing more, nothing less.
You can be a Marxist and be a socialist.
You can be a Marxist and be a fascist.
You can be a Marxist and be the most exploitative and parasitic capitalist around.
Hell, you can be a Marxist while also being the most money-grubbing banker in the west - Marxism will even help you achieve that.
Are you getting this, liberal? Or is it still flying over your head?
You should probably get some psychiatrist to help you, your brain clearly doesn’t work.
Also, normal people learn very early in life that the expected social behavior is to share the minimum amount of information needed to be understood. No capitalist will ever self describe as a Marxist.
Oooooh… I’m so sorry. You conflated ideology with identity - and now you’ve gone and got your ego hurt on the rocks of political reality.
Yeah - that’s never a good idea. It’s a recipe for disillusionment.
No capitalist will ever self describe as a Marxist.
That’s because they don’t feel the need to stake their egos to the term “Marxist” like you do. Come here to Africa - I’ll show you “Marxist” neoliberals aplenty. You couldn’t throw a brick in one of our parliaments without hitting one.
You are stupid
You getting your feels hurt does not imply any failure on my part, okay?
This is HILARIOUS! Thank you!
Ahh, so it’s a skin color thing… Yea, color me shocked you’d have that kinda spin lmao
What color and political leaning are you? We’d like to judge what type of human you are
Ahh, so it’s a skin color thing…
Come again? Are you trying to pretend that US foreign policy isn’t white supremacist?
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence… you’d better hop to it.
What color and political leaning are you?
Why? Is my speech not white - oops, sorry, I meant to say “western” - enough for you?
Why does the compromise guy have a hammer and sickle on him? Is it because these countries were formally part of the USSR?
There are online self-proclaimed leftists who simp for the totalitarian Soviet regime, and often for China as well. The slang term for them is ‘tankies’. Generally speaking, they’re the ones you see online spreading the “Ukraine has to compromise for Russia’s Legitimate Security Concerns!” The hammer-and-sickle is there to represent them.
It’s very bizarre, considering that most leftists I know, even the ones I butt heads with, recognize that Putin’s Russia is an imperialist and fascist state. But no one has ever accused tankies of being consistent.
Don’t worry, some tankie will be along to correct you that Russia doesn’t meet the exact textbook definition of Fascism, so it is actually a utopia.
My favorite incorrect definition for tankies is, they dont actually like communism, they just like tanks.
They like “dictatorships of the proletariat,” and if they think that is given to them by Daddy Big Boots, then theyll simp for him hard as they can.
Absolutely loving the pushback against their shit here on .world, it was getting bleak there for a minute…
Yeah. Tankies in most places are absolutely inconsequential, but they’re very prominent on the Fediverse. It’s good to push back against the poisonous parts of their ideology (like ‘Imperialism is good if it’s a capitalist state that’s not part of the West doing it’).
Would hate to see that kind of vile fascist shit normalized on here.
Yep, authoritarianism and imperialism is wrong left or right. The United States has a horrible track record on this front it’s true. But they’ll lose their shit when you state a simple fact like ML nations are generally just as bad. Russia basically invaded and forcefully annexed many nations post WWII. Tried to invade Afghanistan. Imprisoned and slaughtered millions in Siberian prisons to this very day even. All for simple dissent. Nivalny anyone? China isn’t really any better either.
They usually break into a sputtering revelry of “But imperialists and the west did X”. Which you can easily tear apart with a simple “And?”. Because it doesn’t justify them doing it.
Id still argue that tankies and authoritarians of all kinds dont fit in in the left, but otherwise agreed.
I want a society thats classless, cashless, stateless. Currency, billionaires, socioeconomic classes, dictators dont fit.
Same here. It’s a long road. And unfortunately ml and tankies specifically have set us back on it quite a bit. But the evolution Karl Marx originally spoke about is absolutely worth continuing to pursue.
Keep being the change u wish to see in the world. Love u bae <3
Absolutely loving the pushback
And it’s being replaced with liberalism - which is every bit as bad.
“Liberalism”
Liberalism is when no tank
…in the most verbose way possible, with bonus points for referencing people out of context, cherrypicking their worst takes, or just deferring to lunatics in a ghish gallop too exhausting to be worth challenging.
They have grocery stores with bread you know. Suck on that imperialist!
“Fascism” is thrown around entirely too much as a term, when it’s just one variety of authoritarianism, which is the term we should be using
Russia doesn’t qualify as a fascist state.
Not when you ask putler, try asking people who aren’t running a fascist state.
Has Putin stated that he’s running a fascist state?
I have news for you, liberal - strengthening, enabling and exploiting fascist elements within a capitalist state to protect the status quo existing within said capitalist state is not a fascist thing to do. It’s a liberal thing to do. That is literally how fascists get into power in the first place - they can’t get into power by themselves.
Is this a difficult thing to understand? I’d say it’s quite simple.
Also… good luck with the whole “putler” thing. Somehow, I don’t see that taking off.
He’s a communist from lemmygrad
“communist”
Today were can clearly see that, communism was always a red herring. Tankies during cold war and tankies today (that love to dress in American flags), were always about supporting of totalitarian regimes.
The hammer and sickle is to support USSR.
Tankie is a special sort of communist. Doesn’t seem fair to paint all communists as tankies.
Tankie is just facist wearing red instead of brown. Leave communism out of it.
Seems pretty fair to me. Socialism and communism are inherently totalitarian.
Right when bad things happen under capitalism it’s just the profit motive
Bad things don’t happen under capitalism.
Bitch, bad things are happening RIGHT NOW under capitalism wtfdym
Lolwut?
“Capitalism is when everyone just has a good time”
- Adam Smith, Wealth of Nations
fucking what
Definitely not imo, if we are talking about the ideology. Many socialist/communist countries have been totalitarian though, so there’s a big divide between the ideological basis and goals and what has ended up happening.
Sort of? Vanguardism is inherently totalitarian, for example. The core idea is that the vanguard know better than the poor proles what’s good for them (Maoism is basically vanguardism). Stalinism is quite obviously and clearly totalitarian, putting rapid “strong” decision-making for the goal of rapid economic development above everything.
There are more democratic and equal forms of socialism, like Democratic socialism, syndicalism, mutualism (if you accept anarchists as part of the umbrella) and so on.
My core point is that socialism can be totalitarian or not depending on the actual ideology inside the big varied umbrella term.
Well put. I just meant more that socialism and communism doesn’t have to be totalitarian, ideologically a lot of the views inside those can be close to anarchism. The real life examples of socialist and communist states we’ve had (the thing people think of often when they think of socialism and communism) have just been examples of it either having been a totalitarian form of it or have devolved to totalitarianism (depending a bit on the interpretation, but that’s a really heave topic).
Anarchism is an inherently socialist and communist ideology.
Anarchism in short: heirarchy should be abolished
Socialism: workers should own the means of production. Being forced into wage labor is a form of heirarchy
Communism: a stateless (hierarchical structure), classless (social heirarchy), moneyless (a system of power that easily lends itself to hierarchical means) society.
One way to look at anarchism is a description of the way to realize communism, and continue past it into a more egalitarian social structure. Nobody has successfully realized communism for an extended period of time, but there are/have been projects that were well on their way. The zapatistas, CNT-FAI, and rojava come to mind. We’re lead to view the USSR and China (for example) as socialist/Communist because associating those places with the word understandably puts people off of the idea. Their insistence that they are socialist/communist doesn’t help that either. They never really met the mark imo
The whole point of these ideologies is a totalitarian regime.
As someone above said it well, it depends. The whole of socialism and communism though, no.
Yes. One must be utterly delusional to believe that communism is not totalitarian.
Nah communism is just naive people trying to enact collectivist policies wholesale not realising or not wanting to believe that such policies are incredibly open to subversion by authoritarian groups.
collectivist policies
Why do you fine folks draw lines on political and skin pigmentation if it’s about collectivism?
At the risk of feeding a troll.
My argument is basically the ‘china/russia were never real communism’ one but with the caveat that real communism isn’t possible in the first place with real human beings because its so easy for a bad actor to hijack the entire thing and thus that will inevitably happen almost immediately. Any real communist is probably naive, deluded or excessively optimistic.Tankies are just the same kind of bad actor who are the reason such a system is impossible in the first place and promote communism simply as way to seize ever more power. Its a very pedantic point of view but I’m sick of the right wing changing the definition of words.
No, you’re talking about tankies
I was talking about tankies, whose definition says those are communists that were also fine with using tanks on population by Soviets during the Hungarian revolution.
I’m trying to say those people weren’t as much in love with communism as with the love of the Soviets and this is much easier to see today since Russia isn’t communist.
OP thinks the west should continue to send weapons to Ukraine until Russia pulls out of all former Ukrainian territory, and putin is deposed and sent to the hague, and Russia is balkanized.
Most communists want it to end as soon as possible, with the Russian-speaking parts of Ukraine currently occupied by Russia remaining either independent or in Russia if they vote that way.
This is usually misconstrued as supporting Russia.
Ah, so you were in favor of the initial peace plan proposed by Zelenskyy at the start of the invasion?
with the Russian-speaking parts of Ukraine remaining either independent or in Russia if they vote that way.
… and what about the Russian-speaking parts of Ukraine remaining part of Ukraine? Is that not an option? Does democracy only count if it benefits Russian interests?
This is usually misconstrued as supporting Russia.
No, it’s simply recognizing the Motte-And-Bailey style arguments put forth by red fash. It’s the same pattern as the alt-right.
and what about the Russian-speaking parts of Ukraine remaining part of Ukraine?
This could be an option but what the cost? You all couch generals understand tha not only Russian ppl but Ukranians lifes are being destroyed?
Do you undeestand that your option is to the deaths and war crimes keep on going right? Retaken these territories is almost free for you but not for Ucranians.
Also, no Communist I know defends Putin, Russia is an imperialist scum as US, UK and France that are using Ukraine as their war table.
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“If the US didn’t back a coup”
“already voted once to join Russia”
lmao
And you wonder why no one takes you lot seriously.
Putin is genociding Ukraine.
stop supporting this, thanks.
Do you mean the one in March 2022 that was torpedoed by Boris Johnson
This is incorrect. It was torpedoed by Ukrainians finding out about the Bucha massacre about a week earlier.
if Minsk II was simply enforced.
Who should have “enforced” Russia to move their soldiers out of Donbas and how?
What is this cicil war you keep talking about?
Russian-backed separatists in the Donbass.
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The invasion started in 2014. It was not an organic movement.
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You sound like a nazi supporter in 1939 supporting the annexation of the sudetenland. What do you mean the nazis should pull out of the formerly czech territories? I haven’t heard the russian government give any reason they should be there, that the nazis didn’t give.
with the Russian-speaking parts of Ukraine
Only if all the non-Russian speaking parts of Russia get to vote to leave Russia as well.
“I find that I’m smarter than most people.”
“Whatever leads you to that conclusion?”
“I have a hammer and sickle wallpaper on my desktop! Also, those who are not me should learn to compromise. Because I won’t lift a goddamned finger to do such a thing myself, yuck. Also, bOtH pArTiEs ArE tHe SaMe.”You have been promoted to moderator on lemmy.ml. Congratulations!
“I find that I’m smarter than most people.”
https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/610:_Sheeple
Tons of Ayn Rand energy radiating off this post.
Whoosh?
Like, you’re just too dumb to understand the concept of someone speaking as if they’re someone else?
This image is misleading because only one person wants to destroy Ukrainian state and people: Putin.
To make this image more realistic place putin and his mafia on one side with text “I want to rule forever”, Ukrainians and Russians on other with text “We don’t want to be killed” and RT in the middle.
The meme neglects the whole 2014-2022 civil war period in Ukraine. Euromaidan alone kicked off with dozens of dead and thousands injured. Subsequent revolts in Donetsk and Luhansk killed thousands more.
By the time of the actual Russian invasion, Ukrainian rebels were in full blown street battles with government military units.
Claiming “Ukraine just wants to be left alone” feels a bit like doing a “Woo-wee, I’m just a small bean Saddam doing a little protest over Kuwaiti slant drilling. Why is mean old George Bush Senior being so mean to me with his Operation Desert Storm?” Or bemoaning the sweet innocent little Slobodan Milošević for doing a policing action in Bosnia.
Ah yes, Euromaidan. When Ukrainians kicked out the Russian puppet politician and replaced him with…
shuffles notes
Oh, there was no replacement. They just held a democratic vote and the puppet fled.And then Putin retaliated by sending soldiers into Ukraine, which according to Putin, is an act of international aggression.
When Ukrainians kicked out the Russian puppet politician
The guy they kicked out was actively trying to join the EU. The riots that kicked off a decade of bloody civil war did nothing to decouple Ukraine from Russia. All it achieved was to militarize the conflict.
And then Putin retaliated by sending soldiers into Ukraine
Just as they did in Chechnya and Tajikistani, to the thunderous applause of Americans in the grip of their War on Terror.
Hell, we outright partnered with him under Clinton and Bush.
The riots that kicked off a decade of bloody civil war did nothing to decouple Ukraine from Russia.
You say this like Putin is subhuman, a force of nature that must be handled with care.
And like Ukrainians are the ones that caused their own abuse under his regime.
Be more specific, name the human being who sent soldiers into Ukraine.
You say this like Putin is subhuman
What the fuck are you talking about?
Who do you think financed and supported those rebels?
There are no Ukrainian rebels.
We could burn putin? Or just medium rare on a spit toast. The stick is sometimes tied to the guy, but in this case a stick could be driven slowly over the course of a few days. putins usually come with a convenient hole on either side for that. Best of all lots of animals could be fed… maybe 15 or 16 Lions?
It can be just 3 Lions, it’s just a compromise.
Ukraine: The Avoidable War
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LL4eNy4FCs8
Sources linked in description of video.
Did you even watch this? Doesn’t really support the tankie narrative
Hot take, Tankies aren’t as bad as Zionists, and I know which group there’s more of, and has more influence and power.
Both seem to be championing nazi rhetorics and methods.
One is doing that on a segment of a niche internet forum, and the other is doing that on millions of humans. Like I said, I know which ones worse. Zionists get people killed. Tankies yell about things that already happened.
Tankies yell about things that already happened.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_famine_of_1930–1933
Sometimes they don’t talk about things that happened.
Is that worse than creating conditions to prolong ongoing genocide though?
First of all I AM NOT DEFENDING ZIONISTS.
However, the Soviet Famine killed between 5.7 and 8.7 million people and the population of Gaza and the west bank is only ~5 million, so the famine might have been worse, but no one wins when you play the suffering Olympics.
Its more power mapping than suffering Olympics. Tankies can only argue to justify things, there are no tankies in control of countries or influencing countries budgets and agendas. There are Zionists that control countries with massive militaries though. There are zionists in media influencing millions daily. You can be mad at tankies for defending things but they had no hand in perpetuating them, you cannot say the same of Zionists. Why spend time being mad at groups that don’t influence anything?
Why spend time being mad at groups that don’t influence anything?
They influence discourse on here, and if “The kulaks deserved it and the deportation of the Crimean Tatars was holsum” becomes normalized, I sure as shit ain’t sticking around any more than I would stick around someplace where Nazis are normalized.
Spreading fascist talking points in an effort to discourage voters in the West from sending aid to Ukraine also has a very real effect.
And neither of them are as bad as 1940s Nazis. And those aren’t as bad Maoists. A rotten apple is a rotten apple no matter the variety.
Cops are rotten apples, So are nonprofit universities that use massive endowments to essentially be for profit. No one would claim they’re just as detrimental to society as each other. One of the groups is clearly worse and it’s surprising how many people are refusing to engage with that idea. If you think Zionists arent getting people killed and Tankies are, I really don’t know what to tell you.
My friend, you are on a web platform specifically designed to engage in every conversation, including that one. The point everyone who replied to you is try to make is that you going into a conversation thread and sidetracking with no additional value has the same energy as saying “all lives matter” as a reply to black lives matter. No shit Sherlock, but you’re not doing any good by throwing in “but, zionists” to the conversation at hand.
Is that comparison not me engaging in the discussion? Or is it only engagement when you agree with it? Zionists are killing people, right now. Tankies exist mainly online and their numbers are bolstered by foreign troll farms and sock accounts trying to create division. So sorry I don’t want to buy into that outrage of people who scarcely exist.
You’re right, it’s engagement at the level of an “all lives matter” chud. I didn’t realize that was the level of thought you were intentionally going for. Congrats I guess?
Again. Zionists are killing people right now. Tankies are the most minor of minorities. If you think saying Zionists are worse than Tankies is like saying all lives matter you’re one of the kids Bush left behind, so congrats I guess.
You aren’t engaging in the discussion.
You are derailing it.
Smells of Putin Propaganda because Russia gets rightfully criticised.
Putin proganda props up tankies talking points to foster division and outrage, outrage like this meme. What does russia have to gain from my stance of ignore tankies because they only exist online while zionists sre influencing actual policy, war and death? You cant just call everything you dont like russian propaganda, but thats about as lazy as most response ive been getting.
Tankies are as bad. They’re just less powerful.
At least since the fall of the SovUnion
Who gives a fuck? They should both be shouted down by thinking people.
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You mean the plan of not lying down and let Russia take your country? Literally self defense, that “plan”?
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I can’t speak for the US but Europe definitely wants to help. Russia will try to invade more European countries if Ukraine falls. I respect your bad past experience but no, Ukraine is not Iraq and the two situations are significantly different. For starters, European help is not tied to any political concessions whatsoever. There is no way for the EU to “hollow out” Ukraine. On the contrary, Europe is just waiting for the war to be over so Ukraine can start the process of joining the EU. As a sovereign country.
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I don’t have the time or energy to correct the numerous inaccuracies, straight up moronic takes and straw men in your last reply. Believe what you want to believe. In five years’ time, when history proves your wrong, at least have the decency to admit to yourself you were wrong and Ukraine is not Iraq because the two situations are significantly different.
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To be fair Ukraine have said they intend to fight until the borders are back to pre-war which includes Crimea.
Compromise can be met with Crimea.
Edit: can someone who downvotes explain why you disagree?
About the only bit that could be compromised on. Crimea isn’t going to be retaken by an invasion force, unless the whole Russian military collapses in on itself.
However, I would note that effectively sieging Crimea is very viable considering the poor state of the Russian Navy in the Black Sea and Crimea’s reliance on supply from the rest of Russia. However, that would require most Ukrainian land taken during the initial invasion to be reclaimed first.
A properly supplied Ukraine could probably manage all that singlehandedly given what weve seen.
Yep most definitely, reclaiming the mainland is step one and no compromises should be made there. The decision on the remaining bloodshed and cost required to retake crimea from 2014 annexation can be evaluated at that point.
Crimea WAS the compromise. In 2014. The orange revolution was the compromise in 2004.
The disagreement is with the idea that compromise would even result in a real peace. The Russia would stop actively working to dismantle the Ukrainian state. It’s not even just Ukraine. Georgia was invaded in 2008.
At this point, it’s just appeasement. And appeasement doesn’t work.
It would have been more convincing had Ukraine not spent 2014-2022 pounding cities in the eastern Donbass.
I don’t understand. Would you please expand on this?
They’re referring to the fact that the war actually started in 2014. 2022 was only a military operation and it has only last year been finally referred to as a war by russia. So yeah, russia’s been struggling in Ukraine for quite a while. They thought they could pull another Georgia 2008, I guess. Can’t blame them for trying now, can we? It’s only their historical territory and nazi territory that they’re trying to take so it’s ok.
The fact OP and all the liberals in this thread ignore on purpose.
Ignore Ukraine fighting Russians who invaded their country? I thought that was the point?
Are you trying to stand by the bald faced lie that ‘its just locals who disagree’ over booting out the extremely corrupt Yanukovych? Just locals with Russian military tech shooting down MH17.
I’m sure the oil and gas discoveries prior to the 2014 invasion had nothing to do with it.
What really blows my mind is the tankies ignoring Ukraine trying to nationalize the energy sector ahead of Russia’s invasion.
These borders are arbitrary lines drawn by Soviet bureucrats. It did not matter as long as both countries were in the Soviet Union. This is not a war between two countries. This is a war over how the Soviet Union should break up.
Maybe, if you consider the ethnic cleansing the soviet’s did. Like getting rid of all the tartars in Crimea. When you send an entire population to the gulag to die, maybe their historic borders don’t matter so much anymore. Is that what you are referring to?
There is nothing Ukrainian about Crimea. It’s Tatar country. After the Soviets murdered the Tatars, Ukrainians took over.
There is nothing Russian about Crimea. It’s former Tatar country. After the Soviets murdered the Tatars, Ukrainians took over.
Did I claim that Crimea was Russian? Ukraine has no legitimate claim to Crimea, neither doea Russia.
Ignore Ukraine fighting Russians who invaded their country
The fact the nazis were shelling civilians in the Donbas.
Yeah they overthrew the democratically elected leader, so it’s not a democracy.
It’s not as simple as Russia bad guy invaded good guy for no reason.
The democratically elected puppet of Russian oil oligarchs. He had loaves of gold hidden in his mansion.
Don’t try to strawman me with the bad guy no reason BS. I stated before and I will say it again. It’s oil and gas. That’s the reason.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eo6w5R6Uo8Y&t=0
Russia invaded in 2014 because they didn’t want their oil and gas market to be undermined by Ukraine.
The democratically elected leader by the Ukrainian people. You have any evidence of election fraud or are your little feeling just hurt?
Russia invaded in 2014 because they didn’t want their oil and gas market to be undermined by Ukraine.
False. Russia invaded for national security interests. We would do the same if a foreign nation was training and arming Nazis on our border.
