I do understand the point you’re making, but the example in the OP has more layers to me than strictly speaking about a bear vs. a man.
It shouldn’t take an incredible leap in logic to ascertain that the comparison is meant to present simply that “men are dangerous to women”. Actually picking the bear is evocative hyperbole. All any man would need to take from this is “I should strive not to make women feel this way”.
If a man takes this sentiment personally and then becomes a threat to a woman, that man is interpreting in bad faith and in fact wants to threaten women. We have a system of patriarchy precisely because men feel superior to women, and women have little they can do about it. I’d wager these angry men were going to find their excuse to exercise their superiority regardless of what a woman says. This rift exists without anyone else’s help, regardless of if you want to accept that’s what it is. We need more clueless yet compassionate men to understand a woman’s struggle, not less. If we pretend that there aren’t a worrying number of dangerous men, we are those dangerous men.
I could write excessively about how a white person describing a black person as dangerous is far and away a completely different conversation from this, but I don’t want to expend the characters. Tiniest tl;dr, the power dynamics and history are not the same (they’re roughly inversed, in fact), and your example has a legitimately sinister reason to happen. It’s far from a 1:1 comparison.
I do not disagree that the two things have vastly different histories but that isn’t the point of the conversation to be had. A woman’s fear of interactions with any random man is her perception molded by her life experiences.
I am not a woman so of course I can not speak with my own experiences on this through my own lens but I have had many conversations with the various women in my life to atleast recognize a portion of their perspectives.
I do also concede that they have explained feeling more fearful around men than I can relate to as a man with a physically imposing stature most of my life.
I totally understand that I don’t know what it’s like to be a woman in a male oriented society and to be looked at like an object as they sometimes are.
HOWEVER, not one of these female friends, family, or partners had ever been sexually assaulted and of all of them, only two had ever been in physical altercations with a 1 man each.
Now before you jump on that as an “aha!” moment, consider that theae incidents occurred in their 30s.
As a generally mildly mannered person, I have also found myself in physical altercations with other men a few times in my life… More so than my female friends.
Only one incident in your whole life as evidence of violence and ready to consider all men as dangerous? Wtf?
How can you have such a low opinion of 50% of the people in your life that you think they are worse than a wild animal? It’s unfounded in reality
An alarming number of the women I’ve spoken with have been sexually assaulted as children. The women in your life are blessed with untroubled pasts I guess. Perhaps this may be why you’re not properly grasping the bigger picture here.
Spelling it out, no one is saying literally “all men”. They are saying “guilty until proven innocent keeps you safer against strange men”. This is generally good advice.
Who exactly are you trying to defend here? The only ones with a finger pointed at them are men who willingly threaten women. Are you that? Do you think this messaging will turn you into that? Some advice, in that case: Accept that you are going to be scary to some strangers because you are bigger and stronger than them, and treat them kindly. I promise you, you will be fine. If someone tries to tell you this is why they hate women, get the fuck off of 4chan.
I’m not trying to defend someone here, I was trying to seek understanding while also expressing that I think any person assuming stereotypes are a valid way to think about people you have never met is a bad mindset to have because it elevates the “value” of confirmation bias.
You say the women in my life are blessed with their experiences but are you sure the opposite doesn’t apply? That the women you know weren’t more unlucky than the usual experience?
The finger being pointed by the discourse around this is just saying “I feel like men in general are more of a danger to me than a wild bear” and statistically that is just false. If a majority of men were truly so bad then the patriarchal structure we live in would be significantly worse and there would be absolutely zero advancements of women’s issues for the simple fact that a majority vote would almost never occur in favor of women.
But that isn’t the case. Things have improved slowly over time and the biggest set back recently is access to abortion care and reproductive rights but I think that has much more to do with religious influence (which is inheritelt patriarchal) in the republican portion of the population.
Finally, an olive branch. I have simply been presenting a viewpoint counter to your own and I have appreciated your input. I’m sorry that the lack of tone and subtext available through written communication seems to have made you think I was being rude or something but the knee-jerk reaction to insult and belittle me and my opinion by aligning me with a group that carries a negative connotation is sort of similar to what we are arguing about is it not?
We can disagree and have opposing views and opinions without having to be adversarial. I am unique in my experiences just like you are in yours. Grouping me with others is unfair to both of us because just like the innocent men at the end of that pointed finger, you grouped me up with people who make having dipshits psuedo intellectual takes their favorite hobby. You lose something from this assumption of stereotypes too.
I assume your perspective of our conversation was colored by stains of past experiences you had with members of that group (or atleast those you assume belong to that group) and it meant that even though I was being genuine you saw my messages as if they were an attack against you personally and motivated by malice.
And don’t get me wrong, I’m still not trying to blame you or anyone for that. Perception is reality afterall. But thats the mindset I’m trying to advocate against. The mindset that a group stereotype allows for a realistically useful assumption about any given “member” of that group’s personality, demeanor, or temperament.
Apologies for my conduct faltering. I wanted to go to sleep, and I don’t actually like extended arguments over what feels like obvious knowledge. I do understand where you’re coming from with your perspective on stereotypes. They hurt me in much more dangerous ways in my day-to-day life. However, “stereotypes=bad” removes the nuance from the conversation and diminishes lived experience.
To continue using the bear, not all bears are going to maul you on sight, but we assume they will, because that will keep you alive in a survival scenario. That is a valuable stereotype. Likewise, when a woman is e.g. at a bar and a man offers her a drink, she’d be correct in assuming the man has the capacity to roofie her drink and rape her, so being vigilant keeps her safer than blindly trusting a stranger. Another valuable stereotype. If I see a cop, I assume he wants to imprison or kill me for my skin color, and I do what a can to avoid being a situation where a cop would be anywhere near me. It doesn’t matter that the rule isn’t universal. My safety comes first.
Yes, stereotypes can and will be weaponized to hurt vulnerable people, but this is a weapon utilized by oppressors more than the oppressed. A white man is the most powerful thing in our society right now due to our history rich in white supremacy, misogyny, and forced disparity between perceived in and out groups. In this specific case of a woman stating that men make her feel threatened, this is not a weapon, but a tool. The only thing it hurts is the feelings of men who can’t read between the lines. If a white man says a black man ringing his doorbell deserves to be shot to death because he could be dangerous, we have a very different dynamic. Think predator vs prey. The predator is trying to kill. The prey is trying to survive. Survival should not offend you.
This is a fantastic response and despite are our disagreements on the topic I just want to thank you for being real about it. Thank you for the apology as well but want to say that you certainly did not owe me one for your conduct. These long texts degrade the value of what would probably have been a really good conversation in person and I do not doubt that my choices of words and phrasing probably came off as dismissive. Passion is an important part of perspective and we seem to have had a very different set of circumstance we grew up an continue to live in.
I grew up as a white male in a rural town with parents who were way too young but thankfully grandparents who were able to prevent us from living in total poverty. One year an uncle of mine died in a car jacking to a few black men and more than half of my close family just up and decided all black people were bad over night. A spark lighting powder keg of pent up confirmation bias. I was to young to understand it well at the time since I was in 2nd grade but my best friend at the time was the only black kid in my school within like 4 grades and when I couldn’t invite him to my birthday party later that year and no one could explain why. I was oblivious and angry but looking back he was depressingly somehow already accepting of the injustice. We played basketball at recess and still talked plenty but we drifted apart and it took me a long time to understand why.
There is obviously much more like this than just the one incident but suffice to day I’m in my 30s now, moved away to a large city, and I don’t keep in contact with really any of my family with the exception of a 1 cousin (who is also a bit racist at times but serving 3 tours in the military opened his eyes for the most part)
Granted I’m coming at this hatred of stereotypes for selfish injustices rather than countless erosions of my perceive value as a person but I’m passionate about the value of treating others equally none the less.
To continue using the bear, not all bears are going to maul you on sight, but we assume they will, because that will keep you alive in a survival scenario. That is a valuable stereotype. Likewise, when a woman is e.g. at a bar and a man offers her a drink, she’d be correct in assuming the man has the capacity to roofie her drink and rape her, so being vigilant keeps her safer than blindly trusting a stranger.
This analogy helps I guess. I’ll be honest, I still strongly dislike the concept at a level that also feels blindingly obvious to me too but because I want to argue that anyone should be at least somewhat suspicious of any stranger offering you a drink regardless of gender.
I just find this whole viral event to be of diminished impact because it hinges on so many women saying something so exist because there are a lot of men who do need to hear from women they trust that their actions (even those with innocent intent) carry the power to strike fear in those same women that they would feel awful for scaring… But they aren’t going to hear that because this preposterous doubling down that any random bear is less dangerous than any random man is the thing all the loud and obnoxious assholes who make toxic masculinity and what-a-bout-ism their whole personality are going to latch onto.
Have the conversation, make your feelings known, but starting off on this false pretense just ruins the impact so throughly that it’s hard to not be frustrated. I know it’s a technicality and that it’s petty but most people resist change and introspection because it is hard and awkward to navigate. This gives them an out so the reach is now crippled.
I strongly agree that stereotypes are used by oppressors to terrorize and diminish the oppressed but with one added facet… The oppressors often do not see themselves as the oppressor. Most people with advantages in life don’t often see them as advantages. They still have difficulties and issues and traumas that they focus on and when someone comes along saying “I’ve had it worse in this particular regard” they don’t stop to compare objectively they just keep doing exactly what they are already doing until it impacts them. And if that ends up impacting them negatively, of course they are going to resist. Just like anyone would want to regardless of their relative situation when they feel they are being treated unjustly.
This text chain is becoming impossible to read on mobile, so I’ll keep my response short.
I thoroughly appreciate you offering your perspective, and I do agree that some bad actors will take this in the worst possible way. I suppose it’s difficult to control opposing echo chambers in a way that brings us together. I’m sorry to hear about your friend. It’s a shame this was the type of world we were given to change. In all sincerity, you’ve given me a different way to think about things, and I hope you get to live your favorite life.
I do understand the point you’re making, but the example in the OP has more layers to me than strictly speaking about a bear vs. a man.
It shouldn’t take an incredible leap in logic to ascertain that the comparison is meant to present simply that “men are dangerous to women”. Actually picking the bear is evocative hyperbole. All any man would need to take from this is “I should strive not to make women feel this way”.
If a man takes this sentiment personally and then becomes a threat to a woman, that man is interpreting in bad faith and in fact wants to threaten women. We have a system of patriarchy precisely because men feel superior to women, and women have little they can do about it. I’d wager these angry men were going to find their excuse to exercise their superiority regardless of what a woman says. This rift exists without anyone else’s help, regardless of if you want to accept that’s what it is. We need more clueless yet compassionate men to understand a woman’s struggle, not less. If we pretend that there aren’t a worrying number of dangerous men, we are those dangerous men.
I could write excessively about how a white person describing a black person as dangerous is far and away a completely different conversation from this, but I don’t want to expend the characters. Tiniest tl;dr, the power dynamics and history are not the same (they’re roughly inversed, in fact), and your example has a legitimately sinister reason to happen. It’s far from a 1:1 comparison.
I do not disagree that the two things have vastly different histories but that isn’t the point of the conversation to be had. A woman’s fear of interactions with any random man is her perception molded by her life experiences.
I am not a woman so of course I can not speak with my own experiences on this through my own lens but I have had many conversations with the various women in my life to atleast recognize a portion of their perspectives.
I do also concede that they have explained feeling more fearful around men than I can relate to as a man with a physically imposing stature most of my life.
I totally understand that I don’t know what it’s like to be a woman in a male oriented society and to be looked at like an object as they sometimes are.
HOWEVER, not one of these female friends, family, or partners had ever been sexually assaulted and of all of them, only two had ever been in physical altercations with a 1 man each.
Now before you jump on that as an “aha!” moment, consider that theae incidents occurred in their 30s.
As a generally mildly mannered person, I have also found myself in physical altercations with other men a few times in my life… More so than my female friends.
Only one incident in your whole life as evidence of violence and ready to consider all men as dangerous? Wtf?
How can you have such a low opinion of 50% of the people in your life that you think they are worse than a wild animal? It’s unfounded in reality
An alarming number of the women I’ve spoken with have been sexually assaulted as children. The women in your life are blessed with untroubled pasts I guess. Perhaps this may be why you’re not properly grasping the bigger picture here.
Spelling it out, no one is saying literally “all men”. They are saying “guilty until proven innocent keeps you safer against strange men”. This is generally good advice.
Who exactly are you trying to defend here? The only ones with a finger pointed at them are men who willingly threaten women. Are you that? Do you think this messaging will turn you into that? Some advice, in that case: Accept that you are going to be scary to some strangers because you are bigger and stronger than them, and treat them kindly. I promise you, you will be fine. If someone tries to tell you this is why they hate women, get the fuck off of 4chan.
I’m not trying to defend someone here, I was trying to seek understanding while also expressing that I think any person assuming stereotypes are a valid way to think about people you have never met is a bad mindset to have because it elevates the “value” of confirmation bias.
You say the women in my life are blessed with their experiences but are you sure the opposite doesn’t apply? That the women you know weren’t more unlucky than the usual experience?
The finger being pointed by the discourse around this is just saying “I feel like men in general are more of a danger to me than a wild bear” and statistically that is just false. If a majority of men were truly so bad then the patriarchal structure we live in would be significantly worse and there would be absolutely zero advancements of women’s issues for the simple fact that a majority vote would almost never occur in favor of women.
But that isn’t the case. Things have improved slowly over time and the biggest set back recently is access to abortion care and reproductive rights but I think that has much more to do with religious influence (which is inheritelt patriarchal) in the republican portion of the population.
Finally, an olive branch. I have simply been presenting a viewpoint counter to your own and I have appreciated your input. I’m sorry that the lack of tone and subtext available through written communication seems to have made you think I was being rude or something but the knee-jerk reaction to insult and belittle me and my opinion by aligning me with a group that carries a negative connotation is sort of similar to what we are arguing about is it not?
We can disagree and have opposing views and opinions without having to be adversarial. I am unique in my experiences just like you are in yours. Grouping me with others is unfair to both of us because just like the innocent men at the end of that pointed finger, you grouped me up with people who make having dipshits psuedo intellectual takes their favorite hobby. You lose something from this assumption of stereotypes too.
I assume your perspective of our conversation was colored by stains of past experiences you had with members of that group (or atleast those you assume belong to that group) and it meant that even though I was being genuine you saw my messages as if they were an attack against you personally and motivated by malice.
And don’t get me wrong, I’m still not trying to blame you or anyone for that. Perception is reality afterall. But thats the mindset I’m trying to advocate against. The mindset that a group stereotype allows for a realistically useful assumption about any given “member” of that group’s personality, demeanor, or temperament.
Apologies for my conduct faltering. I wanted to go to sleep, and I don’t actually like extended arguments over what feels like obvious knowledge. I do understand where you’re coming from with your perspective on stereotypes. They hurt me in much more dangerous ways in my day-to-day life. However, “stereotypes=bad” removes the nuance from the conversation and diminishes lived experience.
To continue using the bear, not all bears are going to maul you on sight, but we assume they will, because that will keep you alive in a survival scenario. That is a valuable stereotype. Likewise, when a woman is e.g. at a bar and a man offers her a drink, she’d be correct in assuming the man has the capacity to roofie her drink and rape her, so being vigilant keeps her safer than blindly trusting a stranger. Another valuable stereotype. If I see a cop, I assume he wants to imprison or kill me for my skin color, and I do what a can to avoid being a situation where a cop would be anywhere near me. It doesn’t matter that the rule isn’t universal. My safety comes first.
Yes, stereotypes can and will be weaponized to hurt vulnerable people, but this is a weapon utilized by oppressors more than the oppressed. A white man is the most powerful thing in our society right now due to our history rich in white supremacy, misogyny, and forced disparity between perceived in and out groups. In this specific case of a woman stating that men make her feel threatened, this is not a weapon, but a tool. The only thing it hurts is the feelings of men who can’t read between the lines. If a white man says a black man ringing his doorbell deserves to be shot to death because he could be dangerous, we have a very different dynamic. Think predator vs prey. The predator is trying to kill. The prey is trying to survive. Survival should not offend you.
This is a fantastic response and despite
areour disagreements on the topic I just want to thank you for being real about it. Thank you for the apology as well but want to say that you certainly did not owe me one for your conduct. These long texts degrade the value of what would probably have been a really good conversation in person and I do not doubt that my choices of words and phrasing probably came off as dismissive. Passion is an important part of perspective and we seem to have had a very different set of circumstance we grew up an continue to live in.I grew up as a white male in a rural town with parents who were way too young but thankfully grandparents who were able to prevent us from living in total poverty. One year an uncle of mine died in a car jacking to a few black men and more than half of my close family just up and decided all black people were bad over night. A spark lighting powder keg of pent up confirmation bias. I was to young to understand it well at the time since I was in 2nd grade but my best friend at the time was the only black kid in my school within like 4 grades and when I couldn’t invite him to my birthday party later that year and no one could explain why. I was oblivious and angry but looking back he was depressingly somehow already accepting of the injustice. We played basketball at recess and still talked plenty but we drifted apart and it took me a long time to understand why.
There is obviously much more like this than just the one incident but suffice to day I’m in my 30s now, moved away to a large city, and I don’t keep in contact with really any of my family with the exception of a 1 cousin (who is also a bit racist at times but serving 3 tours in the military opened his eyes for the most part)
Granted I’m coming at this hatred of stereotypes for selfish injustices rather than countless erosions of my perceive value as a person but I’m passionate about the value of treating others equally none the less.
This analogy helps I guess. I’ll be honest, I still strongly dislike the concept at a level that also feels blindingly obvious to me too but because I want to argue that anyone should be at least somewhat suspicious of any stranger offering you a drink regardless of gender.
I just find this whole viral event to be of diminished impact because it hinges on so many women saying something so exist because there are a lot of men who do need to hear from women they trust that their actions (even those with innocent intent) carry the power to strike fear in those same women that they would feel awful for scaring… But they aren’t going to hear that because this preposterous doubling down that any random bear is less dangerous than any random man is the thing all the loud and obnoxious assholes who make toxic masculinity and what-a-bout-ism their whole personality are going to latch onto.
Have the conversation, make your feelings known, but starting off on this false pretense just ruins the impact so throughly that it’s hard to not be frustrated. I know it’s a technicality and that it’s petty but most people resist change and introspection because it is hard and awkward to navigate. This gives them an out so the reach is now crippled.
I strongly agree that stereotypes are used by oppressors to terrorize and diminish the oppressed but with one added facet… The oppressors often do not see themselves as the oppressor. Most people with advantages in life don’t often see them as advantages. They still have difficulties and issues and traumas that they focus on and when someone comes along saying “I’ve had it worse in this particular regard” they don’t stop to compare objectively they just keep doing exactly what they are already doing until it impacts them. And if that ends up impacting them negatively, of course they are going to resist. Just like anyone would want to regardless of their relative situation when they feel they are being treated unjustly.
This text chain is becoming impossible to read on mobile, so I’ll keep my response short.
I thoroughly appreciate you offering your perspective, and I do agree that some bad actors will take this in the worst possible way. I suppose it’s difficult to control opposing echo chambers in a way that brings us together. I’m sorry to hear about your friend. It’s a shame this was the type of world we were given to change. In all sincerity, you’ve given me a different way to think about things, and I hope you get to live your favorite life.