I don’t understand the gatekeeping here, do you get mad that people enjoy the fast and furious movies? It’s not like these are funneling resources away from the tons of great indie games that are literally constantly coming out these days.
I’m not for gatekeeping but I can understand the pushback in this case. People had the same argument for Bethesda horse armor in the past and it’s gradually been abused to stuff like day 1 dlc and Diablo IP becoming a predatory mtx handphone game. At some point if you don’t voice concerns over Ubisoft delisting games (the crew) or $100+ pricing bundles, you shouldn’t be surprised if Ubi opts to mess with previously beloved IPs for a quick buck.
It’s great that you love indies and all but shaming other people for being frustrated at Ubi’s business practices is no better than gatekeeping people for liking their new games.
I think you’re somewhat demonstrating their point, given that I’ve fairly consistently liked D3 and D4 and don’t have any experience with Immortal. I’ve seen lots of critique about 4 that doesn’t necessarily ring true (I can’t imagine playing well at all on mobile, especially given my choice of skill rotation) and that makes sense mostly when it’s grouped with Immortal in a way I find somewhat arbitrary. Immortal itself isn’t especially predatory within the context of mobile games, though being one is a factor in why I haven’t tried it.
I think it’s easy to dunk and point out things like “you can’t earn enough currency to get the next battle pass for free” without honestly examining what the battle pass in D4 is and realising that it offers extremely little. The free armour is cool and interesting enough that I get the dopamine reward when looking at my toon on the loading screen without paying for it. Indeed I think paying for a set to some extent cheapens that experience vs. getting that reward multiple times via picking up gear and not using transmog at all.
Might be some other parts of its monetisation I’m not considering in my assessment but I don’t think it’s predatory. So when I constantly hear all about how predatory it is, often it instead serves to drive me toward the brand loyalist lapdog tribe. I wouldn’t say it’s shameful at all, but it’s tiring to engage with as though there’s a more nuanced perspective behind it than just general naysaying, when often that just doesn’t seem to be the case.
This is gonna be super offtopic: Diablo 4 was fine, I didn’t bring it up and only specified Immortal for a reason. If only the latest iteration of an IP counts, then I should have said OW2, but I mentioned Immortal because it was so terrible. It IS especially predatory even for a handphone game, worse than the final fantasy ones, Maple, PoGo etc. An actual fun app with it’s progression covered in so much monetization that f2p players can literally never catchup to payers, with gambling systems that can cost up to several thousands. Don’t take us ‘naysayers’ at our word, go ahead and invest your time into it if you’d like. People complain about OW2 mtx but it doesn’t even come close to how bad Immortal gets.
Still, I get your point as to why it’s better to have some nuance on this kinda thing and not hop on corpo hate trains.
Thanks for the reply, I appreciate the nuance where it’s offered. I think the difference in my summary perspective of these issues is in considering its intended targets. I’m aware f2p players in Immortal don’t have a hope of catching up - I do think that’s a predatory part of the summary monetisation of the game - but I think it’s mitigated by being targeted at whales. Because paying in that game doesn’t only gatekeep player power; power scales linearly with the amount you pay. So even people tricked into paying for some power aren’t really able to realise that advantage. IMO this changes the paradigm a bit, because the material effect of the monetisation to the informed consumer (regardless of their level of participation) is to part rich people from some of their riches - something I don’t really find compelling as a summary argument against it. The main other group predated on would be those that choose to be uninformed, which is something that I can’t really think of a good a reason to take some kind of moral stance on
You’re extrapolating a whole lot here, all I was responding to was OP saying “we” shouldn’t buy Ubisoft games because they’re trash and all they make is uninspired shovelware. Just a weird stance in my opinion to concern yourself with what shovelware other people are buying and enjoying in their free time. Guess that’s an unpopular opinion here haha
Movies don’t demand an unreasonable amount of money and time out of you the viewer, you buy your ticket and watch the film, maybe you buy the DVD, done end of story.
Ubisoft games demand a minimum of 70 dollars out of you and upwards of 60 hours all while blocking your progress with arbitrary experience checkpoints and pestering you about spending even more money for weapons, gear, mounts, etc. as if it were a free to play MMO like Fortnite, except you already dumped 70 dollars to play the damn thing.
Not sure where indie games have anything to do with Ubisoft.
I’m a huge fan but I still buy all games at the deepest discounts. There are also free trial periods, friend pass opportunities and giveaways of the games further down the line. Sure, most people fall for the tricks and buy the games right away and even pay for some microtransactions, but they don’t have to, so there’s no ostracizing the poor here.
They actually don’t demand anything from you, just don’t buy it if it’s not for you. That was my entire point and I’m not sure how you missed it, don’t tell people not to buy Ubisoft games if that’s what they enjoy? You all can play whatever niche and indie games you enjoy and others can play the new AC, live and let live.
I don’t understand the gatekeeping here, do you get mad that people enjoy the fast and furious movies? It’s not like these are funneling resources away from the tons of great indie games that are literally constantly coming out these days.
No, because they are action comedies that consistently deliver.
Also, I’d be hard pressed to name a more ethnically diverse movie cast. The epitome of a “something for everyone” movie.
I’m not for gatekeeping but I can understand the pushback in this case. People had the same argument for Bethesda horse armor in the past and it’s gradually been abused to stuff like day 1 dlc and Diablo IP becoming a predatory mtx handphone game. At some point if you don’t voice concerns over Ubisoft delisting games (the crew) or $100+ pricing bundles, you shouldn’t be surprised if Ubi opts to mess with previously beloved IPs for a quick buck.
It’s great that you love indies and all but shaming other people for being frustrated at Ubi’s business practices is no better than gatekeeping people for liking their new games.
I think you’re somewhat demonstrating their point, given that I’ve fairly consistently liked D3 and D4 and don’t have any experience with Immortal. I’ve seen lots of critique about 4 that doesn’t necessarily ring true (I can’t imagine playing well at all on mobile, especially given my choice of skill rotation) and that makes sense mostly when it’s grouped with Immortal in a way I find somewhat arbitrary. Immortal itself isn’t especially predatory within the context of mobile games, though being one is a factor in why I haven’t tried it.
I think it’s easy to dunk and point out things like “you can’t earn enough currency to get the next battle pass for free” without honestly examining what the battle pass in D4 is and realising that it offers extremely little. The free armour is cool and interesting enough that I get the dopamine reward when looking at my toon on the loading screen without paying for it. Indeed I think paying for a set to some extent cheapens that experience vs. getting that reward multiple times via picking up gear and not using transmog at all.
Might be some other parts of its monetisation I’m not considering in my assessment but I don’t think it’s predatory. So when I constantly hear all about how predatory it is, often it instead serves to drive me toward the brand loyalist lapdog tribe. I wouldn’t say it’s shameful at all, but it’s tiring to engage with as though there’s a more nuanced perspective behind it than just general naysaying, when often that just doesn’t seem to be the case.
Damning with faint praise
Might as well say Alcatraz isn’t particularly difficult to escape from within the context of island prisons.
What about Gitmo or Nauru? I kid. I didn’t mean to praise it, my bad. I avoided it personally.
This is gonna be super offtopic: Diablo 4 was fine, I didn’t bring it up and only specified Immortal for a reason. If only the latest iteration of an IP counts, then I should have said OW2, but I mentioned Immortal because it was so terrible. It IS especially predatory even for a handphone game, worse than the final fantasy ones, Maple, PoGo etc. An actual fun app with it’s progression covered in so much monetization that f2p players can literally never catchup to payers, with gambling systems that can cost up to several thousands. Don’t take us ‘naysayers’ at our word, go ahead and invest your time into it if you’d like. People complain about OW2 mtx but it doesn’t even come close to how bad Immortal gets.
Still, I get your point as to why it’s better to have some nuance on this kinda thing and not hop on corpo hate trains.
Thanks for the reply, I appreciate the nuance where it’s offered. I think the difference in my summary perspective of these issues is in considering its intended targets. I’m aware f2p players in Immortal don’t have a hope of catching up - I do think that’s a predatory part of the summary monetisation of the game - but I think it’s mitigated by being targeted at whales. Because paying in that game doesn’t only gatekeep player power; power scales linearly with the amount you pay. So even people tricked into paying for some power aren’t really able to realise that advantage. IMO this changes the paradigm a bit, because the material effect of the monetisation to the informed consumer (regardless of their level of participation) is to part rich people from some of their riches - something I don’t really find compelling as a summary argument against it. The main other group predated on would be those that choose to be uninformed, which is something that I can’t really think of a good a reason to take some kind of moral stance on
You’re extrapolating a whole lot here, all I was responding to was OP saying “we” shouldn’t buy Ubisoft games because they’re trash and all they make is uninspired shovelware. Just a weird stance in my opinion to concern yourself with what shovelware other people are buying and enjoying in their free time. Guess that’s an unpopular opinion here haha
Movies don’t demand an unreasonable amount of money and time out of you the viewer, you buy your ticket and watch the film, maybe you buy the DVD, done end of story.
Ubisoft games demand a minimum of 70 dollars out of you and upwards of 60 hours all while blocking your progress with arbitrary experience checkpoints and pestering you about spending even more money for weapons, gear, mounts, etc. as if it were a free to play MMO like Fortnite, except you already dumped 70 dollars to play the damn thing.
Not sure where indie games have anything to do with Ubisoft.
I’m a huge fan but I still buy all games at the deepest discounts. There are also free trial periods, friend pass opportunities and giveaways of the games further down the line. Sure, most people fall for the tricks and buy the games right away and even pay for some microtransactions, but they don’t have to, so there’s no ostracizing the poor here.
They actually don’t demand anything from you, just don’t buy it if it’s not for you. That was my entire point and I’m not sure how you missed it, don’t tell people not to buy Ubisoft games if that’s what they enjoy? You all can play whatever niche and indie games you enjoy and others can play the new AC, live and let live.
“Just don’t buy it if you don’t like it” can apply to absolutely anything a consumer criticizes. It’s also extremely unhelpful.
Also, that’s a really strange argument from someone who also said:
https://lemmy.world/comment/7920287