I have friends who didn’t have kids and all of them either end up “adopting” friends who were young and needed a mentor or doing something more meaningful with their lives. One became a professor and is a mentor for kids and the other one became a local radio host that helps people through their emotions.
I honestly didn’t know what I was missing until I had my son. To each their own.
And that’s really the point, you don’t add meaning to your life because you have a kid. You add meaning to your life by helping others. Some people do that with their kids while my husband and I choose to do that with friends and family. I’m happy with being child free and I’m happy for those people who find meaning in raising their kids. It’s not an either/or situation.
That’s so well said. I think a lot of people don’t even realize how much we need other people to be happy with ourselves, by ourselves. We need connection and some voluntary dependence to be able to see and understand ourselves. Having a kid is one way but it is not the only way to realize this or to achieve this. It is probably the most straightforward one that just “happens” to a lot of people passively. To find meaning in helping other people that are not your family one has to actively seek this out. And maybe there is even something about having to actively seek this versus having this happen to you.
I will preface by saying that having kids is hard, and today more than ever, it is not necessary to have kids.
But mentoring and bonding with someone else’s kid is not the same thing as having your own kid, by a mile. I’ve done both, and having your own kid is a unique feeling.
The nice thing though is that if you don’t have kids, you don’t know what it’s like. So you don’t miss anything because you’ve never had that feeling.
So when you hear people like me that it’s the best feeling in the world, you don’t have that experience. So for you, it’s not true.
I needed to read this, thank you!! Been healing from some related fallout with my birth family, and figuring out what that means for me and my life going forward. I now recognize the damage one can potentially do by finding their life’s meaning through their kids. Not only does it make the child emotionally responsible for the parent, it also leads to inevitable blowout when expectations aren’t met.
I have no desire to repeat that damage and can’t conceive anyway so kids no longer factor into my life. It’s opened a number of other wonderful and fulfilling opportunities, but the FOMO and fear of isolation when I get older definitely gets to me sometimes. I’m the youngest person I know by a lot… gonna need to fix that in the next 40 years or so or life’s going to get real depressing. I want to, in some small way, help build the world that comes after me, and rescinding parenthood means figuring out what the hell that even means now, and that’s terrifying. Maybe I’ll teach someday, or something.
People will come and go throughout your life and I completely understand that is a really scary concept for most folks. Blood family connections are mostly a given in life (whether you want them or not) but all other connections are something you have to consciously work at. You just have to keep an open mind and look for opportunities to form those connections with others. Maybe you’ll become a mentor for some else going through a similar life situation. Maybe you’ll get “adopted” by an elder who has love to give. And maybe you’ll become an auntie/uncle to nibblings (blood relatives or adopted). None of these roles will give you the real experience of parenthood and that’s ok because every role is valid and there is no guarantee in life that says we get to experience them all. You’ll find that the roles you come to fill and work on are the ones you really need in the end.
Cool. Tell me how you fill up your social calendar at 60.
Exactly the same
Good! If you are in that same space at that time that is awesome. I find people don’t have the same attitude when it comes to that time.
Yeah like getting children is the guarantee for having an adequately filled social calendar and like you can be absolutely sure your children will like your company when you’re 60…
Spoken like someone not even old enough to think about it. Children do invite good parents places and see their grandkids. But it’s ok if you don’t want them. I have heard many people change their mind with age.
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I raised my ex’s kid for a decade and parents groups are the WORST
The only reason you like your kids is the parenting hormones
Instinct not hormones, hormones areentirely different than instincts though linked. Instincts are BIOS while hormones are background processes.
That’s what everybody says… lol.
The friends I invite more often actually supervise their kids instead of letting them make a mess. Parents everywhere, if people never invite you and your kids, take a clue.
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And yet here we are doing the same thing
The presence of comma splices suggests you may not be old enough to have kids anyway.
Okay just play devil’s advocate. The coma splices may not be as improper as you suggest . There is currently a debate among language scholars about this very thing. The question being is short form text, spoken work or written word. The way we use a text message or similar, is much more like the spoken word than the written word. Plus we are using in place of spoken word. So many linguists feel that it is acceptable to write it as we speak instead of how the rule of the written word dictate.
That is actually how I choose to write. I think about how I would be saying it, and if there’s a slight pause (like just back there) then I’ll use a comma.
Dad of 3, exactly how I right except the first comma is a hyphen.
You’re right, this is how we talk.
its a meme, not prose submitted for the pulitzer prize.
or put in a more contemporary way. “Sir this is a wendy’s”
I wouldn’t attempt to persuade anybody to have children, but being a dad has been the best thing in my life bar none. I was that rare custodial single dad to a daughter and certain years of financial struggle aside, I wouldn’t trade the experience for all the wealth on the planet.
She’s grown now. Today it’s a friendship/mentor/advisor relationship in which we play the mentor/advisor role with each other. I give her guidance, and she does the same for me.
She has no plans to have children because she sees bringing a child into this shit stain of a timeline as a moral failure, and I’m fine with that.
She says she may adopt someday, and as the son of a mother who suffered the American foster care system, I can’t see that pursuit as anything other than noble.
But really. If you’re happy not having kids, I support that. I truly do.
I’ll conclude with this - she made me a better person, and for that, I’ll be eternally grateful.
That’s the best.
Ok
I had to give You thumbs 👍 because that was my reaction as well.
As I write this, a neighbor’s child is bawling publicly outside my home.
Yeah, all parents seem to want to tell us how their life was meaningless before they had kids, but I’m good.
I’ve seen some of the most insanely inappropriate behavior from kids. Yes the fault is mainly the parents but the other day a child literally tried to take my milkshake because they could. It was awkward and if I’d been a couple steps further away I think the kid would’ve grabbed it out of the worker’s hand. The parent said nothing, probably because they spend all day every day saying no and it’s exhausting.
Is this supposed to be an argument against having children? Yes, kids sometimes misbehave. They’re tiny humans, believe it or not, and sometimes what they want and feel don’t align well with the world around them. It’s the parents job to teach them how to behave around other people, and some parents are fuckups and do not do that job well. But when parents do their job well, that is how amazing adults are made, you see. Even if the outcome can’t be guaranteed in any way.
If you don’t want to have children, that’s fine. I don’t particularly think you should either. But “a kid tried to steal my milkshake” is just a laughable argument.
“Kids misbehave constantly” is a pretty great reason to not want them especially when combined with like 10 more good reasons which I don’t need to list really. Do you really think that I made the decision based on a fuckin’ milkshake?? I’m sorry my example failed the test of “could a parent needlessly justifying their choices reject this”.
If you don’t want to have children, that’s fine. I don’t particularly think you should either.
Okay then why take this personally? I think it’s fair to take it personally that everywhere you look in society people are having kids and subtly shaming those who don’t. I see that allll the time (this thread included).
You’re in the majority by a lot. You don’t need to get mad at a dissenting opinion just because it doesn’t sound (to you) based on the right example/logic/whatever.
I think it’s fair to take it personally that everywhere you look in society people are having kids and subtly shaming those who don’t.
If you read this thread I’d argue there are more people shaming people for their choice of having children (as you appear to do) than otherwise. Basically everyone here who has a kid argues “to each their own” while half of the child free people argue “you’re a selfish idiot if you have kids”. One dude literally called children an STD. Another one calls it a mental illness.This isn’t even subtly shaming.
Yeah and you’re talking about probably less than 50% of 2% of the population. Just because you see the sentiment does it make it prominent. Shaming people for not having kids is so common you could have it happen to you and barely notice it because you’re so used to it.
I didn’t take it personally and I’m not mad. I don’t care if you don’t want kids but this is a public forum and your argument is absurd. The notion that “kids constantly misbehave” is clearly based on limited experience with kids and you seem to have no understanding of parenting, meaning you have a strong opinion on something you know very little about. Which is hardly uncommon, so don’t beat yourself up about it, but still should be remarked upon when encountered.
I think the reason why this subject is so touchy is that people who never have kids can never really know what it’s like, and it cannot really be explained to them either - all parents understand this to some degree. Some things you can only learn through experience.
This is exactly the condescending bullshit that we have to put up with. You are just trying to tell yourself your kids aren’t quite as bad as anyone looking in would think.
I do not need kids to have meaning in life, and those who do need them shouldn’t force that shit down our throats.
You are very clearly the angry one in this conversation. No one cares.
I agree with the other person. I’m glad you don’t have kids too.
Never said I wasn’t angry…you should try admitting it.
No one is as glad as I am that I don’t have kids though! That’s not the weird insult you seem to think it is
It’s a pretty common sentiment that you don’t “get” having kids until it happens. They seem perfectly willing to drop it after “to each their own” but you call it condescending? The reason your comments are all in the negative is because even the other childless people think you’re a prick.
My man, I’ve been of your opinions, and I have a kid now.
What the person you’re replying to is saying isn’t condescending. He’s not saying that he is more important or more intelligent than you. He’s not saying that he necessarily has a better life than you, or that your choice not to have kids makes you lesser.
The strongest thing he’s said is that you, as someone without a kid, cannot understand the full experience of having one. Same as how (assuming you aren’t a famous actor), will never know what it’s like to be a famous actor.
It’s simple fact. Not good, not bad.
People with kids will never know what it’s like to not have kids as you get older amd more established. I’ll never know what it’s like to have a foot long schlong.
Not every kid is a little shit, just like not every man is a misogynist. There’s also the aspect that the noisy and disturbing children are going to stick our far more than any who are behaving. You don’t remember every car that drives reasonably, or every public transportation rider that ensures they aren’t a nuisance, during your commute.
Please stop projecting your personal frustration with children on the rest of the world, then getting offended when not everyone agrees.
The only reason any of you randos know anything about my opinion is that you’re projecting your need to have children onto the world. “You would never understand until you have kids!” “They change your life and make you whole!” “When are you having kids??” We’re sick of hearing it.
Good for you that you like your choice, just let me have peace with mine, it was absolutely the right choice. Many parents regret their choice, you can tell when they’re angry all the time. Don’t encourage more of that, full stop.
It’s beside the point, but I feel I have to tell you that my kids are lactose intolerant and would let you have your milkshake to yourself. It’s my wife you have to keep an eye on there, she loves them.
Same here man. During the pandemic, my work said “Pandemic is over, come back to the newly built building we are losing money each month”. A bunch of us quit instantly and they then said " Hybrid" then said " Once a week". Last I heard it’s optional.
The worst part is your job thinking you can work infinite hours because you dont have a kid. Its a fucked up tax.
I have a sick (but not dying) sister with 3 kids. As far as work are concerned, I visit every fortnight to help out and rush up to see them every time there’s an emergency or they need childcare.
I haven’t seen the sister in four years and only see my nephews twice a year when they visit Grandma but work don’t need to know that
Do you not have a contract on how many hours you sell to your job each week?
Lunatic Americans have an honor code, who works more hours-competition to maybe one day perhaps get a promotion…
Then the promotion goes to some buddy of upper management that’s only been there two months anyway.
No I’m pretty sure you’re getting us Americans confused with the Japanese work ethic.
Nope. Japanese go home at EXACTLY 5PM
At least Japanese work ethic means you die of exhaustion at 28 to become an OP isekai protagonist.
Americans outside of trades: “Contract”? What’s that? Is that like when my employer makes me sign papers saying I can’t sue them if I get hospitalized because of their negligence?
just lie and tell them you have a kid
double down, even, and tell them the kid has a debilitating chronic disease that you regularly need to take time off work to bring to appointments and provide support for.
now you have even more free time
I’ve heard that if you let the government know about your child, they even give you free money!
I don’t feel the need to defraud the government and our limited social welfare taxes. I’ll happily tell my employer white lies about family who don’t exist, but never the government.
Would be very hard to fake a child to the government…
Protip: you don’t owe your employer an explanation for turning down overtime, for refusing to do unpaid work, for refusing to pick up extra shifts, or for not being able to participate in heroics or death marches.
True, they also don’t owe you an explanation when they fire you.
Even in “at will” states (at least Ohio) you can collect unemployment if they fire you for a bullshit reason.
They do in civilized places
This is so god damn true. I say that as someone in my mid thirties.
I think the drive to have children is so illogical one might call it a mental illness. Why do you need a kid? “I dunno, it just made me feel better”. Why didn’t you adopt? “I dunno, just wanted my own”.
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If we could measure the essence of “this child was wanted and will be loved” I bet it would be significantly higher for adopted kids. On average, of course.
I think it’s a clear sign that it’s the selfish genes talking, puppeting your higher functions to make sure they survive. Not for any reason, but just because those are the genes most likely to continue reproducing.
It’s a bit egotistic, but I like to imagine I’ve sublimated the drive to reproduce, by helping out my friends and their kids when I can. Hehe stupid genes, you think these are your kids because the bonds of friendship getting crossed wires with direct kinship. Stupid-ass genes, you don’t even know your ride ends here.
Yeah it’s really egotistic, but it’s a fun little fiction.
I think of it as more of a fear of death and passing on your own genetics as of way of soothing that fear.
Totally devalues the kid as their own person though (common thing for parents to do).
Unfortunately, that’s exactly my observation too. Some people don’t seem to value life itself, but only if it suits them.
“I can’t explain it, you just have to be a parent to understand.”
makes me wonder if they have tried a pet and wether or not that wasnt just exactly the same feeling
I think people don’t realize just how expensive and difficult adoption is. My ex wife and I looked into it when we were having fertility trouble. Turns out, five rounds of IVF would have been cheaper than adoption. People got used to the idea that adoption is cheap in the 80s and 90s when China, Korea, and a lot of the Eastern European states had an excess of unwanted babies. That is no longer the case and babies are very hard to come by.
So if babies are hard to come by, are the older orphans hard to come by as well? Or is it just that baby adoption is the preference?
Yeah that’s what makes it so expensive. If you’re willing to adopt an older kid it’s still pricey but not the same.
Not sure I understand. So expensive because babies are more preferred? Or are babies not that much preferred and there’s not actually that many kids in foster care/orphaned?
Still 65,000 kids waiting to be adopted in the US alone. On average.
Like, how expensive? Isn’t delivering a baby in a hospital like 10k? Is it really more difficult and expensive than 9 months of pregnancy?
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It’s not just financial. It’s the longterm commitment to care for another creature. Best example is the animal adoptions during lockdown. So many of those pets ended right back in shelters because people realized they liked the idea of a pet, not the actuality. That’s a big part of the reason the barrier of entry is so high for adoption.
Most aren’t babies, though, and lots have been through a lot. Having a baby is already a huge commitment; you can’t fault people for not wanting to take on a kid with a history of trauma or a significant disability. That’s a tall order and the people who do it are saints.
If you have insurance, it’s often not that expensive to actually have a baby. IVF is expensive though, and only sometimes covered by insurance. We were looking at $25k for one round of IVF and $5k for each subsequent round, if those were necessary. Adoption was around $50k from what I remember.
It’s the most basic survival instinct maybe? Jesus what a dumb fucking comment, holy shit.
I am always flabbergasted by people trying to argue that having kids is illogical, selfish, unnatural, etc. Like, the fuck you think we’ve been doing as a species for millions of years? What ya think every other living being on earth is doing?
People trying to reinvent the wheel and making something mundane unnecessarily complicated just annoy the shit out of me. No one is forcing anyone to have kids (at least in societies that don’t ban abortions). You don’t want them or don’t feel equipped to have them - no one cares. But yeah let’s make your own insecurities and traumas and whatever personal reasons you have into an ideology that promotes that creating new life is bad per se.
Having kids is neither good nor bad. It is not selfish or altruistic. It just is. There is no need in overly moralizing it.
Just because something is natural doesn’t make it rational.
The preservation of our own species is irrational, got it. Fuck off, edge lord. Please don’t ever get kids.
What a weird insult rofl
It’s like telling someone who doesn’t like drinking, “I hope you never have another beer!”
I’m guessing you’re in your early twenties and once you grow out of your edge lord phase, you might get the idea to procreate regardless of your bullshit opinions you have now. Unless you start over with school and take it seriously, you shouldn’t pass on your verbal diarrhea to children.
you might get the idea to procreate regardless of your bullshit opinions you have now.
Lol the arrogance. You just can’t fathom that other people think differently. You just assume anyone who doesn’t have the same weird subconscious drives as you is somehow defective. And when confronted with the illogical nature of what you believe, you get angry and defensive.
Here’s the way I see it: we are social creatures, and our relationships define a lot about us and our lives. A parent’s relationship with a child is a very significant one, which can be very rewarding in the right circumstances. We all know the cliche about “if we have a baby it will fix this relationship” and similar.
The drive to reproduce seems like an evolutionary necessity. We wouldn’t be here if it weren’t for that. But that’s an instinct really, and not a rational thought-out thing.
Adoption is extremely important, but it is also the hard mode of becoming a parent. The only reason I even have a biological child is because my wife and I tried one more doctor after being a year or two into the crushing roller coaster of the adoption process, and even having a double adoption fall through.
But then you don’t get any crappy gifts on Father’s Day 🤷♂️
Says who? You can afford to get yourself a nice lego set every holiday, you ain’t got no crotch fruit taking all your moneys
Then nobody takes care of you once you turn 85 and you shit yourself every time you fart.
I don’t want to have kids, but let’s not pretend it is paradise. I see what my father does for my grandparents, and I couldn’t remotely imagine what they would do without him.
So yeha, if you want to live until you’re very old, it won’t be a fun ride. Your only alternative is to be rich and hire nurses that do whatever you need, and hope they won’t take advantage.
I assure you I can take care of myself when I am 85. That’s what the gun is for.
You’re assuming you’ll reach 85 in perfect health conditions. Do you know what dementia is? Please tell me how you’d care for yourself if you got dementia at 75.
[wipingTearsWithWadsOfMoney.gif]
Unemployed?
not OP, but i wish. how would i afford to do what i want?
