🙏🙏🙏 here’s hoping 🙏🙏🙏
NATO will be fine. They’ll just have to up their game a bit militarily. If America wants to be insular and wrap a flag of isolationism around them, it’ll hurt in the short term, but after four years of being more independent of Americas tit, its more than likely the US that will find itself less relevant globally.
Even before this, there was already rumblings, not just in China, but elsewhere, about ditching the american dollar standard and returning to the gold standard. That’s just going to gain momentum as soon as Trump starts trying to wave his mushroom around.
Hopefully the EU takes over. It has a lot more economic strength then NATO. Also the UK is strong as well, but that can be managed. Turkey does its own things anyway and I would not trust them. Norway and Iceland are not that important. Canada is going to go with the US anyway. The advantage is easier common funding for projects, due to the EU having more direct access to money. There are also a lot of the basics in the works already.
Yeah, what is your reasoning behind that statement about Norway and Iceland?
Norway and Iceland are crucial to European defense - what are you talking about?
NATO will kick us to the curb and rise to the challenge. We will need them one day and they will say no.
Nato without USA is still bigger military than Russia.
Yep, and thankfully the EU has seen the way the US is going and started to react appropriately.
But with a fraction of the nukes, which is the actual big stick part of NATO
It took two nukes for Japan to wave the white flag. Do we really need 5,000+ nukes for anything? France has 290 and UK has 225. Thats enough to wipe one or multiple countries clean off of the map without any form of surrender.
Yes, antimissile systems will shoot down most of your missile volley, so you need to launch enough that they become overwhelmed and the few that make it through accomplish your goal.
We don’t know exactly how much “most” is, but its enough that the powers that be consider our current level of armament to be necessary.
This is where I think there is a misunderstanding. You don’t just fire only nukes at a country. You fire a multi pronged attack with regular bombardment aswell.
Shooting down a nuclear icbm doesn’t really help as much as you think, if it catches it.
Not to mention the atmosphere lighting up wouldn’t be much better
You know they don’t go critical when you shoot them right?
A lot of that is because rest of NATO is under US umbrella. Not like nukes are high tech at this point. Most of Europe could get nukes real fast if they wanted, but everyone has been better served by it being to many Nuclear Powers up to this point
And I expect they will get nukes real fast. Ukraine is probably going to go for that, tbh. It’s kinda their only option at this point.
In the game of nukes you don’t really need many.
You can destroy the world just so many times.
The rest is just for showing who has it bigger (the arsenal)
But are we bringing nukes to a biological warfare… umm… party? Or hell, AI drones/nanobots?
NATO colonies deserve their freedom. They need a backbone to stop being US slaves, and Trump demeaning demand terms, is an opportunity for that backbone. It is categorically absurd that Russia threatens to invade current NATO members, and the idiocy of continuing a war on Russia needs to be more obvious to the colonies.
The fuck are you smoking bro
Their comment reads like a bad MAGAcid trip
that everyone believes CIA/US empire disinformation when a D is in the whitehouse does not mean the US empire is full of truth and love for all.
I think that’s unlikely.
But I also thought Trump winning was unlikely,
So what do I know?
As an european: Good riddance.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio
When the US speaks about protection, they mean vassality. It means protection like the mafia does.
4 years? Try 6 months from now.
Good job to all of the fucks who stayed home because of Gaza, thinking that not voting and letting the GOP rise to power would actually help the situation.
Yeah, because Netanyahu’s extreme right-wing policy was a problem with the US’s left-wing party, right?
Yeah, that’ll teach the do-nothing-dems!!1
So you want me to reward holocaust Harris and genocide joe for not doing ANYTHING to stop it? No, I chose to teach them a lesson. Don’t blame us. Blame the dems for not doing enough and putting a shit candidate.
No, I chose to teach them a lesson.
The only lesson you taught them is that the general public wants more right-wing ideas. What you’ve done is teach trans, blacks, and other minorities a lesson, the lesson that they should be beaten and driven out of their country. You’ve taught that women should be submissive, treated like property, like they are in Saudi Arabia.
Good job. I hope you reflect on your “lesson” in the next four years, as your right to vote is systematical dismantled.
I’d rather lose my hearing than vision if those are the only two options, despite not actually wanting to lose neither - which is not an option.
Lose both, then you can shamelessly shift blame rather than risk having to bear any kind of responsibility that comes with using the remaining option.
These people are as detached from reality as the MAGA crowd if they think they’re taking any kind of moral high road by staying home.
Gloating as the Palestinians receive news that help isn’t coming is something that someone who cares more about their own image than a genocide would do.
And where am I gloating exactly? I’m simply stating that you shouldn’t blame the voters but blame the dems for standing for genocide. Not like if harris was elected it would have been any better for the Palestinians.
What lesson exactly? That if the ideal candidate isn’t run, a subset of liberals will pick the worse of two options?
All that does is teach the conservatives that if they can convince you that the democrat candidate fails you enough on a single issue, they effectively have your vote. Regardless of the conservative candidate’s stance on that issue.
You have made the choice to make the problem you care about profoundly worse because there wasn’t a way to make it completely better. Have fun watching that play out as you intended I guess.
To teach that supporting genocide is a red line and not doing anything about it will not get you elected.
Good job the democrats alienating their base by trending right. I get you but this was completely avoidable if the democrats were competent and not a big circlejerk for themselves. Bernie could have beat that spastic in 2016.
Gaza is a serious issue, the US is supporting a genocide. If you cant come out against that then why bother, there isnt much more important to a lot of people. I know Trump will be worse for the region, they do too but if you cant take a principled position that aligns with people you cant complain they didnt vote for you.
You can be rightfully mad at the party that’s failing to represent you correctly (I certainly am) and still make the pragmatic choice of not getting the guy who will make those issues worse elected.
We need to come together nationally and locally to attempt to affect change within the DNC more often than every 4 years, because it seems like every time we’re all reminded how incompetent they are, it’s too late for us to do anything about it for that election cycle.
Didnt everyone do that four years ago, in monumental numbers and there stood a president that provided the arms to blow children out of house and home and off the face of the planet.
Biden did a lot but he missed on some vital issues and that is the fault of the dems.
Yes, and now Trump will help provide significantly more arms than Harris would have, even if she kept providing the same amount as Biden. Surely I don’t have to tell you that that’s worse?
We need to mobilize to change the DNC and Democratic Party leadership in the time we have in between these decisions, not ignore it for 4 years and then throw away your vote in protest.
So the continued support of Israel was inevitable. The choice was between shipping food with the bombs or not. How would you go about changing the democratic party by voting them in, they did that four years ago and they just drifted further right.
Surely I dont need to point out that record numbers defested trump only to have israel propped up and the strictest border laws ever put to a vote by the democrats.
Here is how you change the democratic party, kick out the losers. I wanted her to win but now that she hasnt the party can only blame themselves.
The mythical left dem base doesn’t out vote average centerist group. If you are looking for a perfect group you’ll never find it
In support of that viewpoint, if they were ready to vote but just wanted to vote for someone who touted their interests, they’d have been there for a third party candidate, but they just were no where to be found.
Would be interested to see why people sat it out. To the extent it was something utterly mundane like “couldn’t afford to take any time off work to get it done”.
Good job the democrats alienating their base by trending right
Ok, but
Bernie could have beat that spastic in 2016.
Bernie lost in the primaries, it’s our own fault (I voted for him…)
Bernie lost in the primaries
DNC primaries are a joke. look at this last primary. oh wait we didn’t actually have a primary.
they intentionally waited until the “primary” was over so that Biden could get the incumbent automatic primary votes and then let him drop out so they could rush in Kamala without having a real primary.
i firmly believe if Democrats were not trying to game democracy this presidential cycle, DNC would have had a chance to beat Trump
they intentionally waited until the “primary” was over so that Biden could get the incumbent automatic primary votes and then let him drop out so they could rush in Kamala without having a real primary.
If that was the case, they would have done it sooner. Kamala stepping in was definitely an unplanned, and unprecedented, move. It’s a huge risk to drop the incumbent in favor of somebody else.
Millions of people stayed home. I really doubt Gaza was the reason for all of them.
Urgh, even now before the votes are all in (this will take weeks to finalize) this election was the second biggest turnout since 1932. I hate living in this “post truth” world where everyone just goes off of feelings and emotions. People turned up, for trump.
I doubt Gaza was the deciding factor for 20 million people, but I could be wrong. Especially since anyone that aware of the whole would see trump would worsen the situation not improve it. I’m curious why they did stay home.
I also guess Americans don’t want a woman president and they do want a hard crackdown on migrants. Especially Latinos, who apparently overwhelmingly came out for trump.
If it mattered: Fuck the Dems for doing a genocide that cost us the Republic.
If it didn’t matter: Fuck the Dems for doing a genocide that didn’t even matter in costing us the Republic.
I also guess Americans don’t want a woman president and they do want a hard crackdown on migrants. Especially Latinos, who apparently overwhelmingly came out for trump.
Latinos voting for hard crackdowns on immigrants is the biggest “fuck you, I’ve got mine” energy I’ve ever seen.
And they will be so fucking shocked when ice comes for them.
Or their parents.
But they are one of the good ones! ™
By far, the overwhelming Biden derangement syndrome factor was “transgenders exist and are in my news feed”. That healthcare is available to prisoners and immigrants, means that they are all receiving gender reassignment surgeries. This is democrats fault.
The fact people can’t differentiate edge cases from the norm is a general education issue. But their pushback was anemic.
General education in the US is underfunded on purpose. It’s how the right have won on every issue that counts. Distracted, lazy, frightened and greedy. These are the levers the media pull to get whatever the billionaires want to happen. They tried it with Smedley Butler way back when and learned their lesson. Have the dumbass voter just do what they want with outrage. It doesn’t matter who’s president or who’s in Congress. It matters what’s on the news and who they can pay to put it there. The rest falls into place.
The Democrats also need better spokespersons. They might have better policy, but the infrastructure bill, chips act and lower drug prices will kick in during Trumps reighn.
Only 25% of students pass the civics literacy test
https://jackmillercenter.org/news/how-we-lost-our-civics-education-and-how-we-can-get-it-back
Americans don’t fucking understand policy. Doesn’t matter how you message it.
Probably why they need populist messengers. Fighting sprach with more sprach does not work if you are trying to have a nuanced conversation with a guy using a bullhorn.
It wasn’t deciding factor at all. People get far too internet poisoned and fail to realize how the median voter is actually motivated in this country. Foreign policy is nearly irrelevant to most voters.
If there is any validity to the idea that Harris’ position on gaza tanked the campaign it’s in the motivated active base lost interest in giving their time, sweat, and energy to putting boots on the ground for someone that has made every promise to continue bombing children.
It was, as it always is, and as Clinton said over 30 years ago, “the economy, stupid”.
People who do not pay attention to politics vote like someone pressing random buttons on an elevator. They push the up button, no elevator comes, then they push the down button, no elevator comes, and all they know to do is to keep pushing buttons randomly hoping an elevator comes one way or another. And no elevator ever comes.
Tbh, there’s a very dark part of me that makes me just want sit back, watch Gaza and the West Bank get fully reduced to rubble, and all the Palestinians getting put into woodchippers, and just smirk while saying “wow, good thing we dodged a Harris administration. Who knows what that would have meant for Palestine.”
Oh look, “scratch a liberal and a fascist bleeds” right here!
We know libs have been saying that for nearly a year.
My argument is what did the democrats have to lose for supporting Gaza/Palestinians? It’s obvious not running a fully left facing candidate and campaign was a mistake.
We are mad at the wrong people. The reality of the situation is that the democrats can’t win without the far left of the party. So why won’t we extend an olive branch? If we get a next time, what are we going to do differently?! This is the reality. Either we wake up to that or keep losing. Pick one.
I don’t think it’s mutually exclusive. Why can’t we be mad the the DNC for shit strategy and be mad at the folks who stayed home?
Fuck the people who didnt vote based on gaza. They are even dumber than Maga hats. They help the candidate that is even worse for gaza win . No one should offer these people any branches. Fuck them. Treat them like the idiots they are just like we do with MAGA.
Okay but if we are guaranteed to lose without them, what’s the harm in giving them what they want? Losing while taking the morally right position is never wrong. We spit in the Arab/Muslim/Palestinians/far left Americans faces and they stayed home on election day. So what’s the harm in at least giving into their demands? The Republicans do that for their base and are winning even when they lose elections. So I’m arguing a change in tactics because we are literally taking the insanity route if we don’t.
So what’s the harm in at least giving into their demands?
If people refused to vote because both candidates support Israel, then whose to say that suggesting to withdraw that support wont make an equal or greater number of people to then vote for the candidate who does?
Are we. Is that what the demos say? Don’t think black men and Latinos care about Gaza. The far left is so finicky and small
There is no left and esp. no far left in america.
Not any more there isn’t. And soon, in the next few years, we’ll see a systematic elimination of any remaining opposition, by means of oppression, suppression, and even more violent means.
There never was a left in america. What you call left os conservative in every country with a real political spectrum
They dont have the morally high ground. They chose to help a fascist get to power. These idiots should never get what they want since they have shown to be completely brain dead. But to get to your point better. Giving them what they want means losing all pro israel people to Trump. Staiying between both positions gets people from both sides. However you cannot give the pro palestine people in america what they want since many want a genocide against israel instead which is just as inacceptable as the status quo.
Uhhhh no… Just no… Most Palestinian Americans don’t want genicide to go the other way… And the people living in Palestinian don’t have the capability to even have running water, electricity, airforce or navy let alone the capability to do a genicide so just no. Pro Isreal / pro genicide people were going to vote for Trump regardless… How about a no genicide party? Is that too much to ask?
Difference between you and rational people is we are trying to get the best and not just the least worst people. I voted blue but it’s obvious change is needed.
let alone the capability to do a genicide
Genocide is exactly what Hamas would do if they did have the capacity. Israel could wipe out every single one of them if they wanted to. They haven’t. Wiping out jews is the stated goal of Hamas in the 1988 charter.
Don’t get me wrong, Hamas are the worst of the “other” side but that’s why we would fight them as well if the roles were reversed. But I won’t want to achieve that goal by killing 40k innocent people. I’d be just as upset and angry. It’s asking for no genicide regardless of who’s the perpetrator or whos the victims?!
And also your argument is the equivalent to saying those being surprised by a stronger power can only fight back by conviction means? Or that the Palestinian people having negative views towards religious fundamentalist who are literally killing and starving their friends and family, forfeit their lives for said negative views? For example if you asked jews people in concentration camps during WWII if they had negative views towards German people, and taking their answer as a determining factor on if they live or die… Nazi Germany also called jews freedom fighters in occupied Poland terrorist. And some of those freedom fighters committed horrific crimes against German civilians… Was Nat Turner a freedom fighter or terrorist? Were native American raids on settlements built on their ancestors land righteous or terrorism?
Hamas wasn’t created in a vaccum.
I feel bad for the Palestinians in Gaza of course. Not for their relatives in america who just helped put a fascist in power who will kill their relatives.
Anyone who didnt vote or voted for Stein is deserving of everything that will happen to them I hope their family in Palestine will cut them off because they have signed their life away.
And what’s your solution to those with legitimate hangups? Sit behind a keyboard and call them idiots? There was no downside to being 100% anti genicide. There is no downside to be for universal health care. There’s no downside to making education 100% free. There’s no downside to fighting for income redistribution.
What’s your solution to these real fucking problems? Because the democrats never truly tried any of these or even advocated for them. It’s been this way since the new deal. A slow decay to Jim crow, women’s suffrage, and xenophobia. We need new tactics because what you and the Democrat leadership is saying and doing isn’t fucking working!
They don’t have the morally high ground. They chose to help a fascist get to power.
Kamala Harris, the Democratic Presidential Nominee, lost. Because of her poor campaign tactics, she allowed a fascist to get into power. Are you equally upset with her for not doing what it takes to stop fascism?
If not, why was the “right answer” for this election to support Israel when we know that she lost following that tactic, and not supporting Palestine?
Obviously I am upset with Harris and her campaign. Since she became the candidate I have been critiquing her.
The right answer is not allowing a fascist to be elected. Supporting Israel is what Trump did too and even worse than Harris. Any pro Palestine voter with a brain would see that Harris is better for them.
Now they deserve everything Trump will do to them.
Supporting Israel is what Trump did too and even worse than Harris.
So the key to beating fascism in your mind was to platform the same policies, but a little less? What do you actually think Harris should have done differently that would have helped her win the election? Because clearly, doing the same thing but slightly less bad didn’t work this time.
However you cannot give the pro palestine people in america what they want since many want a genocide against israel instead
You are inventing straw men. No one seriously expects this of Harris, and there is a lot of room between ‘reverse genocide’ and what the Biden/Harris admin did.
If you give in to the “Gimme what I want or I want fascism” crowd they will keep asking for more. Many are already demanding Israel to be dissolved. So fuck these people. I will not shed a tear for them when they cry because Trump flattened all of Gaza.
Whooeee, scratch a lib eh?
Foreign policy is so far from a motivating factor for this country, why can’t you just accept that the democrats are a failure of a party? They went further and further right looking for the ‘Liz Cheney vote’ and lost the popular vote because of it.
The biggest thing will be all those nato countries who can’t do anything with their US weapons if the US says so.
If only there was a country in europe that had voiced this concern in the 50s, all of that could have been avoided… Oh wait.
That is only if they want to continue to buy new weapons, not if they intend to male weapons in Europe
No. I mean the weapons they have now. F35 for example. If a war happens in Europe, will those planes be useful without US support and authorizations? US can do a lot of harm to Europe with that.
Yes let me explain my answer I didn’t elaborate properly.
I think the only recourse the US has if European countries use these weapons without authorization is that the US will not sell more weapons.
And if Europe continues to intreases it’s weapon and ammunition production like they have the last two years that might not be a deal breaker for Europe
I’m not sure Europe can make F35 parts for example, which will not fly for long without it, or ammunitions for various US weapons. I hope it’ll be a wake up call to make and use EU instead.
Just my two cents as an assembly line guy: Parts on aircraft fall into three categories
-Big custom fuckoff parts. They’re not high tech but they’re huge and they’re a specific shape so you need a huge, precise and very expensive mould/die/whatever to make them. Anyone with the aircraft and a decent engineer could design a machine to make these parts but they would be left with a smoking crater where their wallet was after getting the mould made.
-Easy parts. Sure, an aircraft fuel pipe is worth 20k, but the civilian parts are made to higher standards anyways, we can find one no problem.
-Secret technical complex parts. Proprietary cutting edge stuff, which is frankly just bolted onto already complete aircraft. Obviously you can’t replace it if you don’t even know how it works, but the US doesn’t let that stuff out of their direct control very often anyways.
Don’t fucking talk to me about engines though, those are a whole different beast
TLDR: We can totally keep our F35s in the air as long as the parts we’re replacing aren’t the skin panels, the engines, or the Secret Third Thing. And as long as we have the money.
Can NATO still mean something if the US leaves? I think so, but there is much soul searching to be done.
Sorta, but not really tbh. The US was always intrinsically backstopping the security side of things. Without us in it - and I mean this very seriously - it’s not really a credible threat to Russia or anyone else anymore.
NATO article 5 will still have use in self defence, but obviously it will be way less impressive
The article is only powerful if it’s enforced.
I suspect that Putin’s direct report won’t really sign on to any sort of defense of European countries.
It isn’t credible now. It likely won’t exist at all in 4 years. Unless it cedes even more decision making authority to the US and becomes even more of a puppet.
Doesn’t all authority already lie with the USA? If we’re going to be real, I mean. I’m sure France thinks otherwise but let’s be real: NATO was always the “Uncle Sam will protect Europe from Russia”-treaty.
France knows this, that’s why it wasn’t in NATO for most its history. This only changed when one of our president needed war crime buddies
The main point I was making is that Trump is almost certainly going to pull the US out of NATO altogether.
If not attempt to destroy it outright in an attempt to extort it.
I mean if Europe wants to increase their military funding and move items in house I think that would be a wonderful idea. Because America is not a reliable partner in this at all in the past two decades.
The problem is that America has all the money.
The perfect excuse for the military industrial complex to move manufacturing overseas.
So I’m going to say that the military industrial complex is already there, it would simply be a rapid expansion.
If Europe gets into a war of course the US will help. But the same can’t really be said if the US gets into a war. The rest of NATO needs to be able to hold the fort if the US were to get suddenly …distracted in the Pacific
If Europe gets into a war, the US will side with Russia. Trump has been a Russian asset since the 80s, and it’s clear that he gave Putin classified documents relating to American spies and informants during his last presidency when they suddenly started dying a few days after he met with Putin. And even more classified documents relating to American espionage against Russia than the ones he requested before that meeting were found in Mar a la Go.
Are you fucking stupid? Which is the only country to ever invoke article 5? How many other countries listened to the call for this injust war?
Are you fucking stupid?
yes.
If Europe gets into a war of course the US will help.
How sure are you of that? Sure, if Russia marches towards the Atlantic Ocean, but if Russia decides to create a security buffer zone in Finland? Or the Baltic countries?
NATO has only survived for as long because of the commit of the US. Come January NATO is dead as well as a sovereign Ukraine.
Let’s just kick America out if need be.
No need, Republicans will leave it at the behest of their Russian handlers.
