This is not my personal opinion, I know Gen Z men who voted for Harris. But the voter demographics really speak for themselves, and maybe now people will look at the radicalization of young men as a serious (but solvable) issue.

  • Intergalactic@lemmy.world
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    1 month ago

    I’m a gen z male, raised in a far right Republican household. I’m a social democrat. I am progressive.

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      Unironically, congrats on breaking free of the brainwashing. I grew up in an insanely red rural area and a very conservative religious family, unlearning all that shit has been a decades long process (and still continues).

    • atocci@lemmy.world
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      Same man. It was wild when middle school rolled around and I finally gained awareness of the world beyond myself and learned what the Republicans actually were and wanted. A friend who knew more about politics than me explained some stuff, and suddenly I had to question why my family was against progressive beliefs.

    • Xanthrax@lemmy.world
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      Same. I live on a ranch in a deeply red area. Voted Kamala. I’m also happy to say my conservative parents are ex-republicans.

    • hoch@lemmy.world
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      Same here. I’ve cut my entire family out of my life over this shit.

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      Mostly the same, i was raised to be a worthless red neck. I’m not. The issue with using our experiences is that we are people, we have an inner world and are capable of free thought. Trump’s followers aren’t.

    • sudoer777@lemmy.ml
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      I’m also a Gen Z male, raised in an evangelical household at a Christian school that supported Christian nationalism, and was supposed to be a strong conservative Christian but ended up turning into an atheist socialist instead. It’s kind of funny to read that Gen Z is going radical right when for me it was the opposite.

    • rustydrd@sh.itjust.works
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      Can you please tell your entire generation to get it together worldwide? That’d be great, thanks.

      Leaving this here just in case: /s

  • pizza_the_hutt@sh.itjust.works
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    There is a lot to be said here. I’ll use my own experience as an example.

    I’m a millennial male who had a terrible time as a young adult through my mid 30s. I grew up in a fairly religious/conservative area of the US, and I didn’t have the ability to even start questioning that before my college years because literally everyone I knew was either a vocal supporter of or tacitly accepted that cultural status quo. Mental health issues were either not discussed or not recognized in any serious fashion. It wasn’t until my late 20s that I finally understood that I had severe depression and anxiety and sought help, despite suffering from it since my early teenage years.

    Socially, I never felt like I was cool enough or good enough. I didn’t understand women, and the endless series of rejections and confusing encounters only served to erode my low self confidence further. I had no idea what a healthy relationship looked like because my parents were just going through the motions at that point, and the relationships I saw in TV shows and movies were incredibly shallow. The few people I considered friends did not support me in any positive way. I eventually kicked them to the curb, preferring solitude to being the butt of their jokes.

    I was a prime target for recruitment for the alt-right: depressed, alone, disaffected, and ready to lash out. The only thing that kept me from going in that direction was a keen sense that the rhetoric was bullshit and its leaders only cared to take advantage of the rank-and-file to accumulate money and power. Many people I knew were not so perceptive and became victims of that movement.

    My only saving grace was that I had a decent job with healthcare benefits, which allowed me to get the therapy I needed to overcome these challenges. Again, most people I knew did not have such resources. Nearly a decade later, I am now a family man with a wife and child. I am far happier than I have been at any other point in my life. Despite that, there is still plenty I don’t understand. I don’t have a good grasp of what positive masculinity looks like. I cannot point to anyone who has served as a good, male role-model in my life. I still don’t have any close male friends with whom I can share my feelings and challenges.

    However, I do understand how easily young men can be swayed to far-right crusades. Social media warped my view of reality, and it’s far worse now than it was 10-15 years ago. Moreover, there is no alternative to far-right echo chambers for young men to commiserate and get help. Those spaces simply do not exist on the left. If you dare to complain or vent, you will immediately be told your problems don’t matter and called a misogynist. I can readily call multiple conversations I had with liberals and feminists who rejected my problems, even being told that I was “living life on easy mode” because I was a man.

    For all the women who are reading this, I get it. As a man, I don’t have to worry about the government meddling in my bodily autonomy. For the most part, I don’t have to worry about walking alone at night or being accosted or raped. I don’t have to worry about being taking seriously at my job or being passed over for promotions because of my gender. However, none of that negates the challenges that young men are facing. Their gender does not save them from broken homes, abuse, mental health issues, a bad job market, degrading standards of living, student debt, double-standards, confusing and contradictory narratives surrounding dating and relationships, etc. Yes, privileged men with no right to complain do exist, but they are an extreme minority. The vast majority of young men are in a bad place, and the only people reaching out to help have ulterior motives. If you want things to change, try having some empathy. Maybe you will get empathy for your problems in return.

    • bestboyfriendintheworld@sh.itjust.works
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      This. Men are more often victims of violent crime, homelessness, mental illness, suicides, do worse in school, incarceration, die in wars, work dangerous jobs. Classic male institutions, structures, and spaces don’t exist anymore like they used to.

      Add to that that men showing emotions is still seen as weakness.

      These issues aren’t addressed or even mentioned.

      • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
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        Men are more often victims of violent crime, homelessness, mental illness, suicides, do worse in school, incarceration, die in wars, work dangerous jobs.

        The victims of other men. That’s the joke of it all. And the folks screaming loudest about being victimized are inevitably the ones quickest and most eager to take their own pound of flesh at the first opportunity.

        Add to that that men showing emotions is still seen as weakness.

        Primarily among other men. This isn’t a gendered issue nearly so much as it is a socio-economic hierarchy. The “excess males” problem is what’s driving the violence, the poverty, and the declining health. Young men are pressed into the social hierarchy by their elders, often from an extremely young age, through physical, emotional, and sexual violence. They climb the social ladder by proving their tolerance for abuse by those above, while exhibiting a sufficient capacity for sadism on those below. Anyone who cannot endure the abuse and find their own cohort to abuse in turn becomes the social excrement that the system exudes.

        This is literally “The Patriarchy” that feminists rant about and seek to abolish. But efforts to abolish the system invoke its most violent tendencies. The result is a youth population that is selected for the most sniveling and cruel to lead it into the next generation.

        • CancerMancer@sh.itjust.works
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          This entire comment is exactly the kind of lack of empathy that the gentleman was talking about.

          Primarily among other men.

          The worst I ever got for showing emotions in front of other men was being called sensitive. Women on the other hand dismissed me with fury, insulting my manhood and even hitting me.

          They climb the social ladder by proving their tolerance for abuse by those above, while exhibiting a sufficient capacity for sadism on those below.

          Where did you learn this fucking nonsense, gender studies?

          The Patriarchy

          Interesting name for it given how many men will tell you it is women upholding men’s gender roles. Men are still expected to pay for dates, to be able to support families, to have a home and a car before they’re even worth attempting to date…

        • lobut@lemmy.ca
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          When Terry Crews came out about his sexual assault. So many men publicly derided him. I felt so bad for Terry.

          For the record, fifty cent, Vlad from VladTV, DL Hughley were those that made fun of Terry and some even insinuated he was possibly gay.

        • Queen HawlSera@lemm.ee
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          And if Feminists could differentiate between a homeless man down on his luck and a bigoted billionaire asshole, “The Patriarchy” would actually get fought, but they both have dicks and are therefore identical.

          • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
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            The men at the top maintain their position by deflecting the consequences of their exploitative policies onto the lower rungs of the ladder.

        • PixelProf@lemmy.ca
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          I agree that much of the problem is men on men and this patriarchy - men who do not want to uphold patriarchal values can often be ostracized and demonized by those who do - but I believe OP was specifically noting that then those men who get abused and ostracized cannot speak out of seek help because many people will simply snap back at them saying that they are part of the problem and resources need to be given elsewhere. They cannot endure the abuse, and their own cohort becomes abusive, and the only way to avoid the abuse from all sides (in their view) becomes joining the “social excrement” they wanted to escape in the first place.

          Angry screams tend to mask sad and lonely tears. Hatred does not end hatred; hatred ends through non-hate alone. Non-hate is not inaction, though. If we do not look at them, and ourself, with empathy and kindness and understanding and patience, they will continue living in a world devoid of and therefore ignorant to empathy and kindness and understanding and patience.

          • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
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            those men who get abused and ostracized cannot speak out of seek help because many people will simply snap back at them

            The people they’re surrounded with who will snap back are the folks higher up the chain. Parents and older siblings, bosses and sports coaches, bullies at school, etc. The people you see “snap back” on Redpill discords are TikTok influencers none of these men knew existed a day ago.

            the only way to avoid the abuse from all sides (in their view) becomes joining the “social excrement” they wanted to escape in the first place.

            From the inside, you’re told everyone on the outside is out to get you. Anyone who is nice must be a predator. Anyone who is apathetic must be a bigot. Meanwhile, the people on the inside are your friends. They only want to make you stronger and tougher. The hazing, the abuse, and the exploitation are for your own benefit.

            Only be leaving the insulated Redpilled world do you realize most people simply aren’t invested in the cultish behavior and bullshit ideology.

            • PixelProf@lemmy.ca
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              Oh absolutely, I’m pretty sure I’m on the same page with this. I only pose that to someone who believes they’ve found people who respect them, and particularly those who have felt for a long time that their voice didn’t matter, it is counterproductive to approach them and their group with outward hostility.

              Telling them the people who took them in and listened to them are vile, abusive, disgusting people and are exactly the problem they say everyone says you are, is just reinforcing of their views.

              Consider the comment originally replied to; paraphrase because mobile is hard, “those loudest about being victimized are the most eager to take their pound of flesh”. This can easily sound like:

              1. (Man) I’ve been victimized and nobody lets me voice this except for this gang/cult/militia. Cult says they should be allowed to “get support” and they know the way (it’s bad).
              2. (Outsider) Claiming to be a victim usually means you are a terrible person.
              3. (Man) So according to outsiders, if I seek help, I’m a bad person. According to my (cult etc) if I tell them, they will offer a form of support. I can stay with these people and get something of support, or I can leave them, be ostracized, and any attempts to voice my feelings will lead me to being labeled someone eager to take a pound of flesh.

              They need to be shown that those on the outside understand them and are better people than those who took them in. They are with people whose form of empathy and respect is so distorted and toxic, but it’s the only model of that experience they know.

              Your comment, upon my read, felt like anyone in that position would feel justified in their gang telling them that everyone on the outside is out to get them. If they already think everyone else is a predator, what is attacking their friends, their family, and their opinions, going to do?

              They will only leave when they know they will arrive somewhere with the respect they craved without those toxic feelings they repressed during their time with a hateful group.

              So I guess it’s less about the content of the comment, more of the way it represented the ideas, the timing, and the perceived intention.

              • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
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                Telling them the people who took them in and listened to them are vile, abusive, disgusting people

                This isn’t a matter of telling anyone, this is a matter of people in abusive systems realizing it on their own. You can pop over to the ex-Mormon or ex-Scientology communities and find these folks in droves. Its not random anons asserting the corrupt nature of these relationships but the folks who escaped them.

                “those loudest about being victimized are the most eager to take their pound of flesh”

                The loudest folks are the social media influencers. You’ll regularly hear your Tim Pools and your Jordan Petersons, your James Dobsons and your Elon Musks, rant about how men are victimized by femininity, while profiting off the insecure and insulated men who have been roped into their carny acts.

                They need to be shown that those on the outside understand them and are better people

                The folks that profit off the patriarchy are the least willing (or, even, able) to convey an outsider understanding. They only persist by rehashing age old tropes of toxic masculinity.

                They will only leave when they know they will arrive somewhere with the respect

                They can only find respect when they leave. If they’re trapped in a bubble of delusion, they’re just going to get a shadow-play of Woke Liberal Virgins being mean-spirited losers and Based Trad Chads being triumphant paragons of virtue.

        • Vilian@lemmy.ca
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          Primarily among other men

          Studies show that the first person to start judging emotions in man are their mothers while they are kids, and fathers have little todo with that stigma

        • ObliviousEnlightenment@lemmy.world
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          Why is this downvoted, but not the comments its responding to; wtf? But yeah, you could not be more right on the patriarchy bit. All the things being cited here are things actual feminists have known for a century. What men need, beyond positive role models, is a rebranded classical feminism. The reason you cant just call it feminism is kinda the problem. The term has been associated with misandrists, who feminist advocates tolerate way more they tactically should. Because us vs them narratives are very appealing

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            Feminist in general is the wrong word because it inherently sounds like placing women first, rather than treating men and women equally

            I would also say that everyone regardless of gender is treated pretty shittily at the moment

            • ObliviousEnlightenment@lemmy.world
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              I’m using the term because it…is the word for that philosophy. I’m not exactly campaigning here

              You are right about that though. Men and women both get shitty treatments, the funny thing is they’re almost polar opposite experiences and both manage to suck monkey farts

    • bdjegifjdvw@lemmy.world
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      As a Gen Z man who statistically should have fallen down the incel and alt-right pipeline but didn’t, this echos exactly what I see in my generation. We don’t have positive examples of Masculinity, and the left just yells at us that we’re trash, when we struggle with things and most don’t have many (or any) good friends to lean on. So of course they go to the alt right.

      • omgarm@feddit.nl
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        and the left just yells at us that we’re trash

        I’m a millenial and I never got this. There must be a split somewhere when people fell into different echo chambers or algorhythms. Like 7 years go I used to frequent reddit subs like MGTOW and pussypassdenied, looking for something to connect to because of clinical single-ness. These were the only spaces I would find comments like that. On my other, left wing, socialist Internet spaces this wasn’t present. That is why those pro-men/anti-women subs never connected to me. The work on yourself, improve yourself and keep reading was great, but the insane amount of hatred and religion pushing was crazy.

        Yet it feels like men in my situation these days don’t have alternatives. It’s sad when Andrew Tate is considered masculine. Terry Crews or Keanu Reeves are much better. Sure they’re not podcasters, but they give off a much better vibe.

        It’s a shame that the space these men find themselves is pushing against freedom of expression for others.

        • exasperation@lemm.ee
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          I think it depends on a lot of real-life interactions, too. I had coaches and teachers and older work colleagues (including in heavily male dominated workforces, like the military) who were strong masculine role models. So when it came to media consumption I tended to gravitate towards celebrities or famous characters who already fit the worldview.

          Nick Offerman played a libertarian Ron Swanson on TV, but in that fictional work the core cultural markers of manhood were explicitly presented as non-political, and seem largely shared with the left-leaning actor himself.

          Terry Crews is similar, as you’ve pointed out. On Brooklyn 99 his character was presented as a loving father of young girls, who was in connection with his feelings, but also loved working out and sports and, you know, was a cop with a gun. In real life, in interviews, he seemed very much in tune with healthy masculinity and his place in the world.

          Steve Kerr and Greg Popovich give off positive male leader vibes and often speak up about political and cultural issues, while largely being protective and supportive of the younger men who essentially work for them.

          George Clooney is funny because he came off as a bit of a womanizer for years, but dove right into his long term relationship with a woman whose own career would arguably overshadow his. He is unabashedly and vocally a supporter of Democrats and other causes associated with the left in the United States.

          Nobody is perfect, or deserves to be put on a pedestal. But there are little nuggets of positive examples all around us, including traditionally masculine men who support ideals that are more culturally and politically associated with the cultural left.

          • Flying Squid@lemmy.world
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            George Clooney is funny because he came off as a bit of a womanizer for years, but dove right into his long term relationship with a woman whose own career would arguably overshadow his.

            George C- oh, you mean Amal Clooney’s husband. He’s some sort of actor, right? Anyway, Amal Clooney is awesome and a hero.

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              I mean, I get the joke but this whole thread is actually about not dismissing men’s problems and acknowledging some positive male role models, just feels a little in bad taste. Yes amal Clooney is amazing, but read the damn room. That’s part of the problem, even after this whole discussion, you still come away with the same conclusions - let’s not bother celebrating the white male because he doesn’t “deserve” it as much as (in this case) his wife

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      Thanks for relating all that - lots of information but worth the read. You largely summed up my own early existence in the first few paragraphs. My therapy came in the form of getting involved in theatre, which exposed me to all kinds of people and ideas, revamped my attitudes and saved me from embracing radical ideas that are more or less based on rejecting a society that rejects you. I think that same cynicism is common in people from many different backgrounds, who share the same alienation for all kinds of reasons.

      I’ll even add one - throughout my software career doing contract jobs, finding a new gig always took me 2-3 weeks and was very routine. When I turned 50 the 2-3 weeks abruptly and permanently became 2-3 months, and took a lot more effort. Apparently in that community I was suddenly too old. Only one recruiter let slip that age was the reason a potential client rejected me, but the sudden difference at 50 was stark. So I don’t know what you do for a living but you might be facing that yourself when it’s your time.

      Anyway I totally agree about empathy. I don’t know what it is but people seem to be constantly on guard nowadays. Their go-to assumption is to look for evil and refuse to accept simple mistakes. That and permanently crucifying anybody who does anything morally unacceptable, or ever did in their past. If somebody Likes the wrong tweet it’s unforgivable and irredeemable. I don’t recall another time when so many people were so militant about this attitude. Forgiveness used to mean compassion, now it means you’re complicit, enabling, a shill, “just as bad,” etc. I think we need to think of the glass houses analogy and stop pretending to be morally impeccable.

    • MBM@lemmings.world
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      there is no alternative to far-right echo chambers for young men to commiserate and get help

      I feel like there’s an adjacent issue where any space like that without a clear political lean quickly gets pushed rightwards by shitters