• -6-6-6-@lemmygrad.ml
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    1 month ago

    “Lol nothing you posted would actually make me believe that is true”

    You ignored 10+ sources (variety of them too; we got western media, aljazeera, grayzone, etc), two infographics (one that was showing purely the demographic split in Ukraine to back up materially what I said as the material conditions that began the outbreak/seperatists) and a personal account from someone in Russia using the good ol’ “Da Russian is just making up excuses! I’m Asian so I can speak on Russians like I’m an expert, I find them funny!” (heavily paraphrasing of course but you aren’t actually comprehending anything I’m saying or something is firing wrong up there) which makes me question your feelings on Russians as a whole.


    “Sure, the little green men were totally ukranian separatist and not Igor girkin…” Yeah, none of this happened before “little green men” were being reported on by Western media at all. Once again, proof you didn’t read what I said.


    “Russia has its fair share of nationalist Bull shit too.” Critical support. What is it? You seemingly cannot understand the concept. We don’t support their nationalist bullshit or their government but solely their anti-imperialist actions against the largest hegemony. Second time I’ve repeated this.


    “Lol, cleansing? There have been multiple investigations that have proved there was more violence coming from “separatist” than ukranian.”

    Burden of proof. I offered sources, citations, etc. Where is yours on this now? Seems like a very specific, easy to find study. Where is it? I offered multiple citations, I expect multiple. Giddy up.


    “I see, so only the imperial core can do imperialism… Everything else is just sparkling intervention. So Germany didn’t do any imperialism when they took half of Europe because England was the hegemony of the day? Imperial Japan didn’t do imperialism because they were a peripheral country?”

    No. You need to re-read what I said and definitely read some Lenin if you’re gonna have bouts with communists. You have no idea what I’m even talking about while ignoring half of it. We don’t have the same definition of “imperialism” not that trying to explain it would matter. We are in the late stage of capitalism. Colonialism and imperialism have taken on new forms. Kings and queens are dead, the church is no longer in power. There is no new “fronts” to exploit, only nations to control and extract from. The more modern history of interventions in Latin America, control of North Africa and Vietnam by the French (their actions in Africa to this day) and how long England held onto it’s colonies are examples of that.

    On top of that, you also are repeatedly ignoring my point that it was indeed an intervention: see below.

    https://responsiblestatecraft.org/cia-ukraine-russia cia.gov/readingroom/docs/AERODYNAMIC VOL. 1_0113.pdf

    “Within days of the February 2014 Euromaidan Revolution that culminated with the ouster of President Viktor Yanukovych and ushered in a firmly pro-Western government, the newly appointed head of the Security Service of Ukraine (SBU), Valentyn Nalyvaichenko, reportedly proposed a “three-way partnership” with the CIA and MI6, the UK’s foreign intelligence service. Ukrainian security officials gradually proved their value to the U.S. by feeding the CIA intelligence on Russia, including “secret documents about the Russian Navy,” leading to the establishment of CIA bases in Ukraine to coordinate activities against Russia and various training programs for Ukrainian commandos and other elite units.”

    You’re literally brain-dead if you think western intervention hasn’t been going on in Ukraine before Maidan/leading up to Maidan and before even separatists and “little green men”. Not to mention the worlds leading hegemony’s intelligence agency has a fucking history of this. Literally in almost every nation. Operation Gladio, for example. Normally, there would be no proof or very little proof in declassified documents but if you’re going to ignore a C.I.A asset being placed into the new government days after it’s inception and also ignore the fact that they literally invited the intelligence apparatus in then I literally cannot help you understand a single thing I’m saying. You have three other stupid fucking idiots who agree with this stupid shit. Combine that with right-wing nationalist take-over that HISTORICALLY was the kind of organization the C.I.A funded (Contras, for example) you would have reasonable conditions for separatists to revolt. Even if they did do “more damage” why the fuck would I care when they’re fighting against a C.I.A-backed right-wing nationalist government? Like are you listening to yourself?


    “I’m not defending American imperialism… Yeah, they are imperialist, but just because they are a source of human misery doesn’t mean they have an absolute monopoly of violence. It doesn’t mean there can’t be a Nazi Germany and a Japanese empire.”

    They do have a monopoly on violence because America has the most military bases around the world, has the largest record of interventions/military actions (compared to the one Russia is being demonized for) and completely controls the financial levers of most of the world through the petrodollar. Russia is in Syria and Africa with small mercenary contingents/PMC groups. America has literal military bases strapped with fighters, bombers and garrisons in almost every country. Sometimes multiple. A good chunk right on the border of “domestic enemies”. You saying there “can’t be a nazi germany or japan” too is essentially graying out the scales of actual, material power these nations have. Russia isn’t nearly as big of a threat as the United States. The United States has a far larger death toll on it than Russia has. Iraq, Afghanistan, Laos, Cambodia, Vietnam, Latin American interventions; I can keep going! But yeah, we should really be vexing over Russia right now and condemning them instead of seeing Ukraine for what it actually is.

    You’re regurgitating their propaganda and taking their views established by the U.S State department. There is no “critical support”. You really believe everything the U.S and Ukraine says about Russia, don’t you? I have yet to see a difference.


    “Only if you completely change the understanding of imperialism to the point where you don’t have a definition that isn’t just America.”

    Unironically what you’re doing as you’ve seemingly never read Lenin. You’re on a Marxist-Leninist board. Your definition of Imperialism is rooted, repeatedly by what you type, in the definitions of mid-1800s geopolitics. We use Lenin. It’s fine not to believe in it, but I can actually ignore what you say on imperialism because you aren’t even engaging with what the actual theory says. Which is something I see repeating; I will engage with you and actually talk your points down and explain my positions further. You repeatedly have gone “Nuh-uh. Nope. What sources? I don’t believe them.” in out-right rejection. Typical liberal left-com bullshit.


    “By regurgitating their propaganda?”

    What propaganda? Every nation has propaganda. Some of it is more true than others. Let me guess, you think China is a giant sweatshop of a gorillion billion people all slaving away to make iphone? Yeah, propaganda. Yeah, typical left-com position. Do you understand how their economy works? Their provincial system?


    “Ukraine isn’t filled with a bunch of Nazi… Like any western nation, including Russia, there are reactionary idiots who hate communist and love fascist. That doesn’t mean the entire country is fascist neonazi, the fact that you think there is mind-blowing considering how many ukranians fought the Nazi.”

    My person in Christ they removed Lenin statues and replaced them with Bandera. I pointed out western intervention. notfromkaliningrad pointed out how they banned communist parties and the Russian language. There are slews of pictures, from BOTH sides of Ukrainian soldiers having Nazi tattoos beyond just “Azov”. The difference between Russia and Ukraine on that part is that one group of Nazis has support from the global hegemon’s intelligence agency. The other is a PMC group that got liquidated. Sure is a difference in how they treat them; not that Russia is justified either. Once again, critical support. Something you keep tossing to the side.


    "Or, it just creates more and more war because people keep supporting far right governments.

    I don’t think people understand that global system theory is just theory, and a theory entirely dependent on the continuation of capitalism. If you actually believe in a hegemony as it’s written in global systems theory, then it precludes the chance a country like China will ever overthrow it with anything other than another capitalist hegemony."

    Because China isn’t a capitalist country; the entire private industry is completely locked in and guarded by a literal vanguard party that controls the profit-seeking for the building of productive forces to serve national interests. Dictatorship of the proletariat. That is why their people are experiencing monumental increases in quality of life in the past 50-60 years compared to the United States and are leading in academic submissions/technological standards compared to the west as well as manufacturing. Their economy continues to grow and has been growing for years straight with only small hiccups. Do you know what Dengism is?

    • TranscendentalEmpire@lemm.ee
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      1 month ago

      You ignored 10+ sources (variety of them too; we got western media, aljazeera, grayzone, etc), two infographics (one that was showing purely the demographic split in Ukraine to back up materially what I said as the material conditions that began the outbreak/seperatists)

      Lol, because they aren’t supportive of your argument. It’s always the same tactics, just add an overwhelming amount of titles that seem to support your argument and hope the person doesn’t actually read them.

      When you do actually read the sources, which I doubt you have, as several of them are broken… They don’t actually support the overall argument. The first source is a great example. You are claiming that there is a huge neonazi problem, when in reality the article reports that the far right party wasn’t even able to get the needed 5% of votes to become part of their parliament. Which is ironic, because Russias far right party has nearly 8% of the vote.

      Other articles are critical of some of Ukraine’s far right treatment of lgbtq community, which is valid. However, it’s still a step up from Russia where it’s fucking illegal.

      “Da Russian is just making up excuses! I’m Asian so I can speak on Russians like I’m an expert, I find them funny!” (heavily paraphrasing of course but you aren’t actually comprehending anything I’m saying or something is firing wrong up there) which makes me question your feelings on Russians as a whole.

      Lol, I guess I hit a nerve with the whole not being white thing. What I said is that I think it’s funny they consider themselves eastern… I think being actually eastern may have something to do with that.

      Yeah, none of this happened before “little green men” were being reported on by Western media at all. Once again, proof you didn’t read what I said.

      So if it didn’t happen before Girkin… Then that should leave you to believe Girkin may have had something to do with it? Or do we just not follow logic anymore?

      Critical support. What is it? You seemingly cannot understand the concept.

      Haven’t really heard anything critical… You’re just supporting nationalist propaganda whole heatedly.

      their anti-imperialist actions against the largest hegemony. Second time I’ve repeated this.

      Again, what theory leads you to believe that supporting right winged nationalist is an act of anti-imperialism? Are you coming up with this yourself? Any leftist philosopher or historical accounts that support this view?

      Burden of proof. I offered sources, citations, etc.

      Lol, you offered a small article that didn’t mention ethnic cleansing. Claiming things like burglary and political kidnapping were equivalent to ethnic cleansing.

      But here ya go “Following the invasion, Ukraine brought a case before the International Court of Justice (ICJ) to challenge Russia’s accusation. During the proceedings of Ukraine v. Russian Federation, the ICJ said it had found no evidence of genocide. The International Association of Genocide Scholars also rejected Russia’s accusation.[2] Further reports by 30 legal and genocide scholars warned that Russia’s accusations are part of the “accusation in a mirror” technique, ultimately revealing the Russian incitement to commit genocide against Ukrainians”.

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine_v._Russian_Federation_(2022)

      In the references, there’s about 25 different sources you are free to pick through.

      . You need to re-read what I said and definitely read some Lenin if you’re gonna have bouts with communists. You have no idea what I’m even talking about while ignoring half of it.

      Lol, Ive read plenty of lenin. Just because I disagree with your interpretation of how to fight against imperialism doesn’t mean I can the a socialist.

      We don’t have the same definition of “imperialism” not that trying to explain it would matter.

      Yeah, something that come across quite a bit with arm chair communist is that their definition of imperialism changes based on their immediate need.

      Lenins definition of imperialism actually included a competition of the great powers, leading to the domination of their less economically advanced neighbors. Which describes the situation in Ukraine pretty well to me.

      Now please, tell me about the definition of imperialism that precludes imperial competition, or that flames there is only one great nation.

      “Within days of the February 2014 Euromaidan Revolution that culminated with the ouster of President Viktor Yanukovych and ushered in a firmly pro-Western government, the newly appointed head of the Security Service of Ukraine (SBU), Valentyn Nalyvaichenko, reportedly proposed a “three-way partnership” with the CIA and MI6, the UK’s foreign intelligence service. Ukrainian security officials gradually proved their value to the U.S. by feeding the CIA intelligence on Russia, including “secret documents about the Russian Navy,” leading to the establishment of CIA bases in Ukraine to coordinate activities against Russia and various training programs for Ukrainian commandos and other elite units.”

      Lol, this is the article that causes multiple people to quit this particular think tank because "Cirincione said he “fundamentally” disagrees with Quincy experts who “completely ignore the dangers and the horrors of Russia’s invasion and occupation and focus almost exclusively on criticism of the United States, NATO, and Ukraine”.

      The article is proposing that a gladios style CIA project from the 40’ is basically responsible for installing the new government. In reality the nationalist party that that project did support isn’t even popular, it literally only got 1.6% of the vote in 2019.

      You’re literally brain-dead if you think western intervention hasn’t been going on in Ukraine before Maidan/leading up to Maidan and before even separatists and “little green men”.

      And you are brain dead to think that Russia hasn’t been intervening in their government and economics since the country came into independence.

      Just because the CIA has officers basically everywhere doesn’t mean that they are responsible for everything that happens in the country. It’s pretty easy to imagine why ukranians wanted to eid themselves of Russian oligarchs controlling so much of their means of production.

      They do have a monopoly on violence because America has the most military bases around the world, has the largest record of interventions/military actions (compared to the one Russia is being demonized for) and completely controls the financial levers of most of the world through the petrodollar.

      Lol, again. I said total monopoly. The fact that you admit Russia is doing the same but on a smaller scale is my point. I can admit they are both horrible, while you are stuck defending imperialism.

      Also if America has complet control of the financial levers of the entire world the Russian economy wouldn’t be able to go on the war front.

      Russia is in Syria and Africa with small mercenary contingents/PMC groups. America has literal military bases

      Not to mention the separatist colonies they’ve been militaraly supporting all over eastern Europe…

      America has literal military bases strapped with fighters, bombers and garrisons in almost every country. Sometimes multiple.

      And that is bad… therefore another great power doing the same to economically disadvaged countries is…also bad.

      You’re regurgitating their propaganda and taking their views established by the U.S State department. There is no “critical support”. You really believe everything the U.S and Ukraine says about Russia, don’t you? I have yet to see a difference.

      Why would I even critically support a right winged nationalist country? My support goes to the people defending their homeland from an invasion that’s killed tens of thousands of people.

      Plus, it’s not like many countries have really whole heatedly defended the reasons behind Russias invasion anyways.

      Your definition of Imperialism is rooted, repeatedly by what you type, in the definitions of mid-1800s geopolitics. We use Lenin.

      Lol, lenin didn’t talk about imperial cores or a conflict with an overwhelming hegemony that validates empowering right winged nationalist. His definition literally talks about competition between Great nations duking it out to exploit less powerful countries.

      You need to read some lenin yourself it seems.

      person in Christ they removed Lenin statues and replaced them with Bandera.

      And liberals in America tore down statues of the Confederacy… Does that mean America’s no longer racist? There are better metrics to measure the popularity of right winged extremists, you are ignoring them because it suits your narrative.

      There are slews of pictures, from BOTH sides of Ukrainian soldiers having Nazi tattoos beyond just “Azov”.

      And there are plenty of Russian ultras that have the same Nazi tattoos. It’s almost like right winged nationalist reactionary groups are common in post soviet states.

      one group of Nazis has support from the global hegemon’s intelligence agency. The other is a PMC group that got liquidated.

      Lol, by that definition both groups have been liquidated.

      Once again, critical support. Something you keep tossing to the side.

      I don’t think you understand what critical support means…

      Because China isn’t a capitalist country; the entire private industry is completely locked in and guarded by a literal vanguard party that controls the profit-seeking for the building of productive forces to serve national interests.

      My dude, I’m not saying that global systems theory is correct. You are. You are utiliIng the theory to promote the idea that any attack on the imperial core is anti-imperialism.

      My point is that the person who invented global systems theory doesn’t believe in socialism in regards to global economy. The idea of an imperial core is reliant on all nations participating in global trade with self interest being the number one priority.