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Correction: “I’m voting for Biden to make sure the things that are happening right now continue to get slowly better, instead of getting immediately and significantly worse.”
The things that are happening right now are happening under biden though… why do you think it would get better when he has initiated the worsening?
I guess I should clarify that I’m not naive enough to think that this all started under Biden because history has inertia. Biden, having been VP before president and a Senator for many years before that certainly had an outsized contribution to the things that are happening now. The things that are in motion now are not going to be solved by Biden or Trump or really any of the entrenched political class in the west and pretending they are is just fooling yourself. They are too ideologically poisoned and are busy self destructing.
Show these people a picture of border patrol on horseback whipping black migrants and 99% they’ll tell you it was under trump
There’s no way to hold their beliefs without being divorced from reality
The choice ultimately comes down to Trump or Biden, it’s not a great set of choices, but RFK Jr isn’t any better than those two and he’s not going to get enough votes to win anyway. Jill Stein, Marianne Williamson, Cornel West, don’t have the numbers either. There aren’t viable candidates that can challenge the front runners at this point when we talk about the POTUS, so you vote for the least harm and try again next time while focusing on pushing Congress, state and local representatives further left.
You sure as shit don’t have the numbers for a revolution either.
This is potentially one of the greatest exaggerations of all time.
Please explore places other than your little conservative bubble, you might actually find the real world out there somewhere.
No no no, Hexbear isn’t pretending to be conservatives, they’re pretending to be communists.
Pretending to be communists, but sure repeating a lot of conservative propaganda
They’ll repeat any propaganda that divides the Kremlin’s adversaries.
So why hasn’t he made anything get better during the three years he’s been in office so far? If anything things have gotten worse.
That’s hilarious and of course it’s hexbear
Yeah we have a track record of being right, you can come to terms with it now or wait until the American flag punisher skull armbands come out.
Do you actually have anything to contribute to this conversation or are you just here to piss your pants because people you disagree with are making their voices heard?
I used to try to engage with you Hexbear users and all I got was mud thrown at me. You’re not worth trying to debate because you never argue in good faith, your only goal is to spread propaganda.
The IRA act turbocharged private renewable energy investment. I saw multiple local projects that were already underway expand their scope immediately after the legislation was passed because the legislation made renewable energy far cheaper to build.
The new SAVE repayment plan for student loans allows families to pay significantly less on their student loans (I currently have a $0 payment with no interest gain on my 8k of student debt thanks to this plan, plus after 10 years of making my $0 payments any remaining balance will be forgiven)
Save 15% by switching your car insurance to geico
That…doesn’t seem to quite fit. We’re you by chance trying to reply to a different comment?
Sorry, your comment just reminded me of a geico commercial
Can’t recall there being an active genocide going on with the full throated support of the US government when Biden got into office.
Are you trying to suggest trump will be better in that regard?
Don’t you remember when Trump imposed sanctions against China because of the Uyghur genocide?
No?
Me neither.
I think most reasonable accounts of the violence at the southern border (which has escalated again under Biden) would be considered a genocide
when hasn’t the USG been supporting a genocide or three?
I mean there was it was just not noticed by liberals
Biden is slowly worse, Trump is quickly worse. Liberalism is not about moving leftward, it’s about continuing Capitalist hedgemony.
Slowly worse is still better than quickly worse, as that means there’s more time to find a better solution.
You won’t. This is a 100 year lesson, when will you learn it?
Sorry, I don’t get the reference. 😅
Given Lemmy I assume 1917
Let me make it more clear then. 👏There 👏is 👏no👏solution 👏through 👏voting! Only improvements have happened through unions, protests and riots.
Hey, I generally agree! It’s impossible to revolutionize a system while sticking to the rules of that system. We can and should fight wherever possible to improve things for our fellow man, no matter what we’re “supposed” to do as defined by the people that stand the most to gain from our apathy.
But that fight includes voting for the lesser harm. Voting for Biden to stop Trump from being president is an entirely valid strategy – and for the people who stand the most to lose, like racial and gender minorities, we cannot ignore harm reduction.
We can’t let perfect be the enemy of good.
Biden was voted in and you had a failed coup. Did you people go and the streets and demand justice? no. You just got worsening conditions and another genocide. Voting didn’t do anything. It didn’t prevent anything. The decent into fascism is inevitable if people just keep voting because they think voting does something. This delusion needs to be ripped out so that people do anything else.
where’s that evergreen ratchet meme
stabbing the blood back in
That’s what they said back in '96 when I voted for Ralph Nader. Now we’re on the precipice of American democracy falling to fascism, if not now, then very likely in 2028. That doesn’t look to me anything like slowly getting better.
Some things have definitely improved in that time, e.g. the recognition of same-sex marriage, or the nascent resurgence of labor unions. Those things have been the result of slow, tough, hard work by the grassroots.
In that same time, though, the Democrats have been slowly helping to put the mechanisms of a fascist state in place, like the PATRIOT ACT, FISA, neutering the 4th Amendment, bolstering the Espionage Act, and setting up collaborative efforts between state police, Federal agencies, and the corporate sector to crush priest movements.
That said, the world is indeed shades of grey, and I voted for Biden in 2020 to stay fascism, if only for a little bit. It’s better to vote for the right-wing candidate versus the fascist candidate. I want to vote for him again, but there are some lines that must never be crossed, and I can’t in good conscience vote for a President enabling genocide. (The fact that both candidates do is madness.)
Maybe my calculus would be different if there were a reasonable chance that Democrats would do the things that are within their power to do to check the rise of fascism, but I have no confidence of that, as the track record shows otherwise.
So you’re upset because you helped elect the second dumbest president in living memory who spent trillions on wars in the middle east, among other horrible shit, and things didn’t get better as fast as you’d like?
Do you know who won '96? Maybe the edit added that though.
Can you clarify whether you’re talking about Clinton or Biden?
Where do they say they lived in Florida?
Hey! So I know you are getting people being snarky and whatnot, but I have a legitimate question.
Could you address the question regarding how the Democrats are at least the party that are at least making slow progress, as opposed to not voting against the party that will turn the country into a Christian theocracy if given the chance?
Like I understand that you don’t like either candidate - neither do we - but realistically, we know the winner will be either a Republican or a Democrat. Why not support the one that at least won’t regress the country 500 years?
I’ve covered a lot of it in other replies, so to keep it brief by analogy: It’s like a survivor from a foundered ship clinging to a bit of flotsam (assuming there’s no chance of timely rescue) rather than swimming for land in the distance. The flotsam keeps him safe from drowning for the moment, but thirst or hypothermia will do him in within days at the outside. His only chance to survive long-term is to abandon it and set to swimming.
The Democrats in this analogy are the flotsam, if it wasn’t obvious. Bill Clinton got into office in 1992, after 12 years of Republican Presidents, and quickly made it clear that he represented the status quo, clinging-to-flotsam choice, rather than making things better. I believed that the long-term health of democracy required making the hard choice to swim for it. I wasn’t smart enough to predict the exact shape of the future back then, but here we are, on the edge of slipping below the waves. That’s the opposite outcome of making things better.
The Democrats don’t even understand the threat of right-wing populism, so they can’t counter it. (It’s not even clear that they would, if they did.) The way to save our democracy, therefore, is to fight for something better.
What is the plan to fight for something better? Like… I’m really not trying to be snarky, I swear, but voting for any party that is not R or D on election Day is never going to result in someone other than someone from one of those two parties being president. That just won’t happen. So unless there is an alternative path for change, I don’t see the point of voting for someone other than a democrat to at least mitigate the damage
Well, should everybody who lives in Alabama vote Republican, because there’s zero chance of anybody but a Republican winning? Do those people have a plan besides throwing their votes away? Or is voting about choosing the candidate that would represent your views, regardless of the odds of winning?
That would be great advice if we weren’t standing at the literal precipice of fascism. Fascism is a storm (pardon the unintentional pun towards QAnon) threatening to overtake us. If ever there was a time to suck it up and choose the “flotsam” to survive to fight another day, it’s now.
The Republicans, aka the Fascists, have a large and cohesive voting bloc, driven by propaganda and fear, that will vote for them just because they’re not Democrats, regardless of the fact that they are known criminals, grifters, and will vote for things that hurt them. This is not the time to divide into ideological factions and hope we make it.
It seemed to me back in the 1990’s that Republicans want to drive the car straight at the precipice at full speed, and Bill Clinton was content to simply lay off the accelerator and coast toward it. I’m not such a canny political analyst that I could predict the exact shape of the future back then, but here we are, at the precipice.
There can be better. That’s the real kick in the teeth. Voting for President doesn’t have to be the biggest thing any of us do. I want to get Biden reelected because it gives us time. Time to carry that momentum into more significant, broader changes. Time to do better and do more and stop sitting on our collective hands for all the remaining days on the calendar.
Because incrementalism is how we got to this situation in the first place.
Damn, you’re way more succinct than I am.
continue to get slowly better
lol looking at the last couple weeks all I see is a crackdown on supposed “open society” in order to combat anti-zionism while the war machine rattles on abroad.
Look at that! Hexbearian whataboutism! Never seen that one before /s
Not whataboutism and also it is Biden sending cops to break peaceful protests so…
They edited their comment to something completely different.
Crazy, ya’ll tankies really will suck up anything that supports your worldview.
This is like claiming global warming isn’t real because it still snows sometimes.
It’s more like saying global warming isn’t real because a new ice age just started. Biden is leading the greatest attack on civil liberty seen since the fucking Patriot Act, and his warmonger inclinations in Ukraine and Israel aren’t counterbalanced by fleeing from the fiefdom of Kabul, and if we take a broader look at how he’s handled policy, we see the continued escalation of the war on immigrants (not that he hasn’t pursued that lately too) and him basically shrugging at Roe being struck down.
Lol things have not gotten slowly better through voting ever or have you somehow missed the last 100 years?
End of segregation. Interracial marriage legalized. Voting rights for native americans. LGBT rights…
Nope, no progress there.
Did those happen because people voted, or was it because of large-scale protests and pressure?
Both. You can’t get what you want by only doing one or the other. If you don’t vote, you can’t pressure sane politicians that don’t get elected, and the insane fascists are just going to ignore you. And we all know that voting alone isn’t the solution
People need to stop acting like voting is the end all/be all, or that not voting/withholding your vote sends a message rather than let’s psychos who want to destroy democracy have their way.
We have the largest protests since the Iraq War, and your “sane” politicians are telling us to fuck off.
They like to pretend like successful protests are a people’s moment, but protests don’t go anywhere without in-power support. MLK was establishment as fuck. The National Guard provided a replacement when his PA system failed at the million man march. You gotta make your opinions known by voicing them publicly and supporting candidates that are sympathetic to your cause. Even better, become part of the establishment yourself and be the helpful politician you wish you could vote for.
MLK was not establishment as fuck, most of his protests were illegal, and he regarded the “white moderate” who agree with his goals, but think things must be done slowly and within the system as just as great if not greater obstacle than the klansman.
It seems to have been buried to the sands of time, but I once read an excellent article explaining why modern protest movements have a terrible track record compared to the ones from before the 1980s (or so). The book “If We Burn” by Vincent Bevins has a similar theme.
The long and short of it is that modern protests are too easy to organize, and don’t represent any real power. You can start a Facebook event and get loads of people to show up and stand in the street, but that’s pretty much it. In order to organize a protest in the 1960s, you had to have an established organization and power structure. You had to have regular meetings and a bureaucracy in order to get a large number of people to show up and protest. That same bureaucracy could also be used for other things, like supporting or opposing particular political candidates, and the oppositional and sympathetic establishment knew that.
A modern protest is toothless. It has no weight behind it. If you want to have enough power to take on the establishment that you oppose, you have to become equally structured and monied in order to fight them. That’s what it means to become a part of the establishment. You might not join the established teams, but you’re going to become so well organized and bureaucratic that angsty teams would immediately write you off as boring and just another part of the system if they ever had to participate in one of your long term planning sessions.
On an individual level my suggestion is to join the system and change it from within, because one person doesn’t make for a very powerful organization. Plus, it’s rare for any random person to have the chops or resources to build up a political organization for themselves. On the collective level, you gotta start holding committee meetings.
I seem to remember those things happening because of protest and struggle.
Elected officials only care about protests when they start losing votes.
Their username can answer this question
It is a little too on the nose
terrifying comment
Have you?
Well no, which is why I ain’t voting. Since it’s useless
Bro. Some elections are decided by 10s of votes. I live in a city of 12k people, on smaller elections less than a thousand people vote. By simply showing up you are effectively voting for 10-12 people. It takes like 10 minutes, and ballot measures alone make it worth while.
If you don’t vote you’re just accepting what those who did vote collectively voted for.
I don’t accept shit. I oppose the whole system and I live my life in way meant to destabilize it.
I’m sure those women facing prosecution for seeking a medically necessary procedure will find great comfort in knowing about your destabilization efforts, as they endure their noble suffering in coming years.
How has voting stopped that result, or the ongoing genocide again?
Stupid, stupid take.
This is literally the stupidest argument I’ve ever heard in my life, and that’s saying quite a lot.
You best not be in a swing state. We’ll anyway, if you aren’t going to be trying to improve things with the rest of us, shut up and get out of the way
Voting doesn’t improve anything. We’ve already said this
Then shut up and let the grown ups talk
No u
Do you unironically believe that life hasn’t gotten better for literally everyone that’s not a Rockefeller since 1924? I think you may have brain damage. Which is a much more treatable condition than it was in 1920 fucking 4.
Correlation is not causation Life has gotten better because of all the struggles outside of voting
Voting does not change the whims of the powerful. The powerful continue to push their will. Currently that will is massacres and genocide. Genocide Joe does have a nice ring to it. Vote or don’t. The powerful will get their way.
Voting is easy in my state, so I will. My current amusement is voting against incumbents. Preference is Third Party > Democrat > Republican.
Beyond the entertainment of voting: keep building mutual aid networks, be a good neighbor and use a pokeball if 2025 gets ghastly.
Well no the powerful won’t get their way if we unite and scare them into submission. Our societies have done this multiple times
Agreed. Better to let Trump win. Things will get much better under him.
It’s not funny anymore. Stop voting for Trump ironically.
Just… Stop. Please.
Biden shares many of my values and goals, but because he isn’t perfectly aligned with my values and goals, I’m voting Trump, a man that shares NONE of my values and goals, as a protest. What could go wrong?
He’s a fucking dixiecrat
I didn’t know one of your values and goals was the extermination of Palestinians.
Jfc nobody said to vote for trump.
It’s sarcasm. And voting for a minor party candidate is a vote for Republicans.
voting for a minor party candidate is, quite literally, not a vote for republicans.
That’s not how FPTP works. You need to go read up on FPTP and the Spoiler Effect.
okay so I read the whole thing. it describes a really shitty, extant system. it defines the spoiler effect. it shows how the spoiler effect makes the already shitty system even more shitty. all that’s fine and well. never once does it say that voting for minor party candidates is literally a vote for republicans, which was the actual statement that I took issue with.
you’re welcome to make the argument that the result is the same and that’s why you specifically will only vote strategically. that’s fine. it does absolutely nothing to compel me to vote for either democrats or for republicans. or even to vote at all for that matter. why participate in such a fundamentally broken system at all then? just to give one more point to 99% hitler? no thank you.
it’s not a strategic vote! it’s an abdication of strategy that pretends only the current election matters! it assumes the present is eternal and that no electoral strategy could ever consider the future. an electoral strategy would admit the left has no real power absent a dedicated bloc and would work on creating one. to do so, you must be willing to sacrifice a few elections, because you must withhold votes and force the democrats to the bargaining table. otherwise you will forever be trapped in a cycle of voting for the “lesser” evil. FPTP does not preclude a long-term electoral strategy.
why participate in such a fundamentally broken system at all then?
Because I have no choice. “The System” happens to me whether I like it or not; the laws happen to me whether I like it or not, and if I can have 99% Hitler vs 100% Hitler, I’ll take the lesser. My refusal to participate doesn’t change the fact that those are my two options, and one will be chosen.
I would rather have a voice than let someone else choose for me.
THEY SAID THE LINE
Ur voting for 99% Hitler???
have at it. i refuse to dignify the actions of any genocidal maniac with an endorsement in the form of my vote. simple as.
And what did I say that was incorrect?
I’m not sure I’ve ever heard anything as incorrect in electoral strategy as voting for “99% Hitler”. elections come every 4 years. a loss today need not remain a loss forever. make the dems come to you! force them to bargain with the left instead of the right!
What makes you hexbearians think this is a good response to anything? Literally just “I depicted you as the soyjak”
everyone knows that when you vote third party those votes are just tallied up and given to whatever republican is running
Explain to me the math on that one, because I’m not seeing how a +1 for a party that’s not the GOP is somehow a +1 for the GOP.
Um actually, voting for a third party is a vote for Democrats sweety.
Realistically what do you hope to accomplish by voting for someone else or not voting?
Goddammit I never said not to vote. What do you hope to accomplish by only voting?
It’s the logical conclusion of your statements
Okay then answer the other part of my question. That’s why I included it.
What other part?
Realistically what do you hope to accomplish by voting for someone else?
I’m not expecting to accomplish much of anything by voting for someone else. I prefer direct action.
I’m trying to think what values biden actually shares with me.
uhh he rides trains sometimes? can we ban him from trains? I feel gross taking trains a genocidier rode.
He passed the IRA, rejoined the Paris Agreement, repealed the transgender ban in the military, restored net neutrality, defended the use of mifepristone, supported Ukraine, and relieved some student debt. That’s enough to earn my vote.
Right, but when your beliefs involve the dissolution of capitalism, these are more like perpetuating the system.
Even the people who believe in dissolving capitalism have accomplished nothing but perpetuate the system.
Its that shitty Ben shapiro meme. “You hate the system yet you participate in it, curious?”
Yeah not really many options when you’ve gotta put food on the table. The change comes from the top down
The top doesn’t have as many options as people think.
Ben Shapiro is dumb and I don’t fault anyone who can’t bring about a worker’s paradise, provided they make an incremental improvement in the lives of others. That includes Biden.
That’s the biggest lol in history
Too bar at this rate, the planet will be burnt to a crisp before we get anywhere close to good enough.
No time for baby steps. Perhaps is selfish, but Id like these changes in my lifetime, please.
same. Biden has never stood for anything but the worst possible things atcany point in time. Pro segregation, pro imperialism, extreme zionist, architect of the modern Jim Crow, major facilitator of the Iraq War, bagman for the banking industry. And the extreme sexism with which he treated Anita Hill is just icing on the cake for what a shitbag Biden has always been. I can’t imagine thinking “he shares some of my values and goals.” He’s literally one of the worst, and certainly one of the individuals most responsible for how bad the world is(as much as an individual can be responsible obviously another ghoul would have done the same things etc.)
Just out here telling on yourself, huh?
Lol
false dichotomy
Denial.
Well you are a fucking idiot who doesn’t understand what a vote is.
A+ genocide shilling here.
Biden does not share my view that genocide is bad. If you want to vote for genocide guy because orange man bad, you are devoid of morals. You are a spineless worm, deserving only scorn and derision.
You somehow think “orange man” would be less into genocide? Genuinely? How???
Trump derangement syndrome really is real if you think there exists a worse possibility than the maximalist position already held by the biggest zionist politician America has had in the last 70 years. You think ‘orange man’ is going to be worse just because ‘orange man bad’?
This is laughably naive
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-israel-gaza-finish-problem-rcna141905
Yeah, I mean, Trump has never been dishonest in how shitty he is. But sure, “genocide Joe,” go off.
The situation sucks. Truly epitome of “lesser of evils” conundrums. Both suck regarding the quagmire in Gaza, but Trump will suck much harder with this conflict and every other metric that matters. He’s not even quiet about it! Unapologetically blatantly terrible! Bigoted buffoonery of the highest caliber!
No one is having a good time here! It’s like picking which arm to saw off!
Obviously Trump won’t be any better than Biden, but if Biden wants people to vote for him rather than sit home and vote for nobody, he should consider not doing genocide. You know, an elected politician trying to represent their voters? The thing democracies are nominally for?
The choices as they stand right now are:
- Vote for genocide
- Vote for genocide
- Don’t vote
This sucks.
Quick correction:
- Vote for genocide
- Vote for increased genocide, plus the autocratic downfall of the US
- Don’t vote
2 and 3 are the same
- Don’t vote and therefore help increase genocide and help provoke the autocratic downfall of the US
FTFY
Hexbears don’t have the ability to downvote, those are from other lemmy instances.
Yeah it’s never worth engaging, they won’t ever argue in good faith. They’re paid to spread propaganda.
Oh, I fully acknowledge this sucks. Juuust as frustrated as anybody, friend.
You’re the one arguing in favor of continuing to bail water out of a sinking ship like Dems have exploitatively argued for decades. This is your status quo, this is what lesser evils of the past have won you.
Disowning the present circumstances requires disowning every single application of your horseshit political perspective for about 50 years. Under neoliberalism, there have only been two Dem strategies: Republican-lite (e.g. Clinton), or lie about not being Republican-lite (e.g. Obama), and you’ve won about half the time and gotten us your “lesser evil” administrations, “crisis” after “crisis”, and all those “lesser evils” have accomplished nothing but serving up new situations to keep choosing between Republican and Republican-lite.
If you want anything other than a farcical good cop/bad cop routine carried on until the country implodes, your strategy has thoroughly failed, repeatedly, for decades.
You have two options: live in madness and keep trying the same thing over and over again in denial of it having the same result, or accept that the “moderate” path is opposed to you ever getting an improvement, instead of the first step towards it.
This is your status quo, this is what lesser evils of the past have won you.
Thank you, this bears repeating. Voting for the lesser evil has consequences. These are them. The consequences are here. Blaming those of us who won’t vote for genocide is like blaming the people who don’t give a homeless beggar $20. Sure, that money could help the guy get a meal today, but he’s in that situation due to decades of neoliberal policy. It’s ridiculous to heap the culpability for all of that on the skinflint today.
If you want anything other than a farcical good cop/bad cop routine carried on until the country implodes, your strategy has thoroughly failed, repeatedly, for decades.
The historical pattern is that pendulum swings and the party in the White House changes after each President. So, there’s a good chance of that implosion coming in 2028.
Genocide is a deal breaker. Unless democrats create an arms embargo on Israel, zero chance I vote for them
Maybe we should call/email Biden’s team and tell them so. Maybe if all of us did that and had our friends do that then the political pressure would save lives?
It’s a really lazy reduction, too. Biden doesn’t spend his days just looking for ways to support genocide. Even if Trump and Biden are “essentially the same” with regard to genocide (they’re not), you can treat that as a logically moot issue. Therefore, you have to look at their other points, and in no way is Trump a better option than Biden in that regard, unless you’re personally getting kickbacks from the Trump grift mill.
Even if Trump and Biden are “essentially the same” with regard to genocide, you can treat that as a logically moot issue.
This is where we disagree. I can not use moral relativism when a party engages in genocide. Further, i don’t agree that voting for Biden is, as many pro Biden folk argue, a repudiation of Trump.
A vote for Biden (or any representative for that matter), to me, is an implicit acknowlegement i agree with his leadership. Am approval and statement that he represents my beliefs and shares, a little, my values.
There is no such thing, in my mind, as negative voting (voting against a candidate). This is not how it works, not how i will be coerced into thinking it works that way*.
A vote for a representative is a positive action. I will not play a game of “what if the boogeyman tho!?” with a party shown time and again to be against my best interests, to ignore me in favor of their donors, to kill tens of thousands.
Voting as you imagine it is nothing but reductive and venal. To consider genocide as “logically moot” is not logical. It’s fucking gross, and i feel absolutely sorry for you
It’s only logically moot specifically because there’s only two options. Refusal to participate doesn’t change the fact that it will either be Biden or it will be Trump in the Oval Office next year. Choosing a third party will also not change that fact.
When functionally presented with two options, you have to compare them. Any similarities (which I don’t agree with the premise that they’re the same, but just for the sake of argument) are thus rendered moot. It’s not moot in the larger sense of human suffering, but when it comes to LGBTQ rights, women’s rights, etc., Trump is the last person to support those issues. Biden is the only way forward if that’s something you care about.
I can only hope you put more thought into this immediately
How you decide to frame the issue isn’t the same for me. I don’t share your, forgive me, extreme views of what is happening in the government or society. If voting is only a positive act for you, then it sounds like you’ve made up your mind. I choose to vote based on other factors, and just like my “chess” falls upon deaf ears with you, so do your impassioned pleas fall upon deaf ears with me.
So there will be no immediate anything. You hope in vain.
It’s only logically moot specifically because there’s only two options.
This is also not true, which is why i said your idea of what voting itself is is reductive. There are more than 2 options.
Allowing your mind to bend to their narrative, believing ) that voting is a binary choice is one way their democracy-destroying little game works.
If voting were only two choices, i wouldn’t vote at all as you seem to suspect. but it isn’t. i will in fact be participating as i have done for 30 years. Just not gonna do it the way you’d like, an imaginary binary election. Before you say it, there is also no such thing as throwing a vote away.
What other options are there?
It’s only logically moot specifically because there’s only two options. Refusal to participate doesn’t change the fact that it will either be Biden or it will be Trump in the Oval Office next year. Choosing a third party will also not change that fact.
This is simplistic. There are only two outcomes to the upcoming election, but there are countless political strategies, many of which do not treat 2024’s presidential election as a totalizing issue. Other people, for example, think that what matters is building a strong leftist opposition so that we can escape the cycle of Republican vs Republican-lite elections, accepting that it means not giving unconditional support to so-called “moderates” for whom genocide is moot. Your logic only makes sense because you are question-begging by framing the question like the future doesn’t exist beyond the next four years.
until and unless we collectively withhold our votes and so express real and actual power, the left will always remain powerless. repudiate the democrats or be forever doomed to an endless cycle of voting for the “lesser” evil. (no moral calculus can ever frame a genocidier as the lesser evil - he’s so far beyond the moral event horizon that I no longer care to calculate)
Biden literally did that. He personally went around reporting requirements so that he could send Isreal a greater variety of weapons for their genocide without congressional oversight.
There’s what Biden is actually doing vs what people think Trump will do. You think Trump will worsen the genocide - but what does that mean, materially? Biden is already sending Israel all the weapons they want and giving them all the air cover they need politically. What more could Trump do?
What more could Trump do?
Send troops. Enact a draft to that end to “make the libz cry.” Send more weapons.
But you’re agreeing with my point. If Trump and Biden are essentially the same on this issue, you have to compare the other things about them, and they are not even close to the same on other issues (LGBTQ rights, unions, women’s rights, taxes for the rich, etc.). If “supports genocide” is the single issue for you, then you live an immensely privileged life that you don’t have to worry about other aspects of governance.
And no matter what you think, thanks to FPTP, those are your two options, because you can’t build the momentum needed to upset the upcoming election; you’re years too late. Abstention is a vote for the person you like less, so you are left with voting for Biden or Trump, whether you like it or not.
Voting is not a valentine, it’s a chess move.
abstention is, quite literally, not a vote for the person you like less.
Send troops. Enact a draft to that end to “make the libz cry.”
You are really out of touch. Trump loves imperial domineering, but he generally prefers to avoid boots on the ground because they represent a liability to his image. He will not send volunteers and he knows as well as anyone that it’d be suicide to enact a draft.
Send more weapons.
Biden does this.
Oh sure let’s talk about LGBTQ rights and Women’s rights shall we. Under which president was Roe v. Wade struck down? Under which president have abortion bans in many states popped up with complete inaction from the federal government? Under which president have anti-trans laws popped up with complete inaction from the federal government?
My expectations of Trump is we will have a buffoonish worsening of the current conditions of the world. Under Biden we will have a cynical worsening of current conditions. Am I priveleged? Yes, I live in the imperial core. I live in a blue state. I have a stable job. But don’t think for a second that I can’t see what’s happening around me.
Under which president was Roe v. Wade struck down?
This one.
And who put the Federalist Society justices in place who struck it down? Oh, that’s right. Donald fucking Trump.
Under which president have abortion bans in many states popped up with complete inaction from the federal government? Under which president have anti-trans laws popped up with complete inaction from the federal government?
This one.
What powers do you think they have? Laws are struck down by the judiciary, which we’ve already established has been captured, thanks to Trump.
Here’s a question for you: who has been enacting those laws? What is the nature of the legislature in those cases?
None of your gripes here are Biden’s fault, unless you’re wishing he’d be more authoritarian (fuck that). Trump is 100% to blame for the current state of the law, and helping him get reelected isn’t going to help LGBTQ people or women’s rights.
and they are not even close to the same on other issues (LGBTQ rights, unions, women’s rights, taxes for the rich, etc.).
Yes they are
If “supports genocide” is the single issue for you, then you live an immensely privileged life
Square peg argument in a round hole of reality. Literally just copy and pasting into a thought terminating cliche what was absurd and ghoulish when you used it for healthcare.
Prove it
Biden does not share my view that genocide is bad
And Trump does?
lol
lmao
my genocider is better than
yourthe other genocider, so much so that I’ll give my active and explicit support to my genociderk
I mean, by virtue of the the fact that Trump will 1000% make things worse in Gaza, literally yes.
You’re talking like if you get the option between getting shot in the foot or the face, you’d pick the face just to make a point.
The whole point is saying I’d rather not get shot at all and I’m not going to give any approval to get shot anywhere. Especially when the question is actually closer to where would I like to shoot some random civilian. I’m not going to give approval to shoot them in the foot nor the face.
Cool, by opting out they get shot in the face. But you get to feel better about yourself so congrats.
And you get to order someone shot in the foot (but let’s be real, they’re going to end up shot in the face regardless face) so congrats on giving the order too I guess
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What values and goals does Biden share with Leftists, other than not being as far-right as the Republicans?
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Who said anything about voting for Trump? I myself am voting Biden most likely because he isn’t as bad as Trump, but I share practically nothing with his views.
What person is criticizing Biden from the left but actually voting for Trump, other than the strawman you created?
Supporting of unions is a pretty big thing biden supports that leftists also support, nevermind his views and actions on climate change and bodily autonomy.
Your comment is wildly reductionist and supremely ignorant.
Biden has given concessions to Unions, that does not make him pro-Union. He has fallen excessively short on Climate goals and has done little to expand abortion protections.
Being less right wing for a liberal does not make Biden a Leftist, it just makes him less of a bad thing.
Your comment is wildly reductionist and supremely ignorant.
“Biden helped unions get what they want, that doesnt mean he helps unions.”
Do you even read what you’re typing?
On the subject of abortions, what do you think he can do short of publicly speaking about his support for bodily autonomy? A president isn’t a king.
Why are most progressives so uneducated on how our government works?
Biden tossed scraps, yes. He has not proposed radical changes to the anti-union policies that exist everywhere, he has not supported strikes, and he has not expanded protections to Unions. Believe it or not, a Pro-Union candidate can do these things! Biden isn’t actually pro-union, he just tosses scraps when strikes happen.
Yes, I do read what I am typing. I want a Pro-Union candidate, not a neutral one, so I will criticize Biden.
I believe Biden can quit playing softball with regards to abortion. Biden is the king of virtue signaling, he isn’t a king but he does have power.
Moreover, Biden is a Capitalist going far out of his way to support ongoing genocide. I am not going to be happy with his Capitalism, and I certainly won’t be happy with his genocide.
Im not sure it’s possible to be more pro-union than being literally the only president in united states history to ever step foot onto a picket line and protest.
He is doing what he is legally able to do for abortions and unions. The president is not a lawmaker, nor a king like you would seem to have him be.
Again, its not his fault you seem to be ignorant of the structure of the US government.
I literally gave you examples of how a President could be more Pro-Union: by presenting and helping pass actual Pro-Union legislation that protects worker’s rights to strike and form unions. Another good one would be mandating that all companies be unionized, or companies of a certain size must have union representatives participate in Board meetings.
Virtue signaling does nothing materially, it’s an optics thing.
He isn’t doing what he can do, lmao.
I am not ignorant of the structure of the US government just because you believe the job of the US president is to shout slogans and steer the country off vibes, lmao
So supportive of unions, thats why he adopted Ronald Reagans policy of making it illegal to strike . All hail the Union loving strike breaker. Couldnt even get em sick days give me a break.
This is blatantly false.
Biden did get the rail workers union sick days. Its not his fault you cant read.
https://www.ibew.org/media-center/Articles/23Daily/2306/230620_IBEWandPaid
He made sure to remove agency from the workers in the process
The end result may have been favorable, but it seems wack to use this an example of Biden supporting unions. Seems more like he disenfranchised them instead
The union strikes and saber rattling achieved their own results. The workers had the power since they scared the establishment to give them what they wanted. However Biden took all the credit for it even though he crushed their union rights which just goes to show how irrevocably damaged the liberal brain is
Either way, it’s an example of Biden placing himself above workers. I was misled by all the liberals posting about how great Biden was for giving the workers what they want.
I am not immune to propaganda.
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What values and goals could anyone possibly share with Biden? You’re pro-modern Jim Crow? Pro-imperial hegemony? Pro-genocide? Pro-banks keeping peoole un debt forever? That’s all he’s ever stood for
Such a low bar. No wonder your country is crumbling.
Sarcasm. I’m making fun of people.
just because trump would be worse, doesnt mean biden isnt bad
Biden isn’t in charge of Israel.
He’s in charge of the weapon hose and has been cranking that shit further open for 7 months when he could have shut it off with a single phone call.
Or shit, here’s a rogue world leader doing a genocide. Isn’t that the kind of thing the US is supposed to extrajudicially coup and kill people for in the name of democracy? Nope, all of the sudden the world empire is helpless to stop a tiny fake country that literally depends on it to exist.
he approved a lot of money to go there
and he did absolutely nothing to stop it
Is biden in charge of the purse strings of congress?
Democracy works by criticizing your elected officials until they make necessary changes. People NEED to be putting Biden’s feet to the fire to end the genocide in Palestine. Just because Trump would be worse doesn’t make what Biden is doing ok. Criticism of one isn’t an endorsement of the other. And Biden NEEDS the votes of everyone criticizing his response to the genocide. Instead of harassing people trying to end genocide, you should be asking why Biden supports genocide more than the young voters who he needs to win in November.
The meme implies protest at the polls. Their comment is reflective of that sentiment. Criticize and protest US support of Israel independent of casting your vote in rebellion. The point stands that Trump encourages eradication of the Palestinians and Ukrainians, while oppressing working class Americans and repealing climate change progress.
I’m not voting for genocidal geriatrics either way sorry
You’re going to get one whether you like it or not. Do you want the nicer geriatric or the one who wants to burn shit down? Because if we don’t try to stop it, this will be 2016 all over again.
I hope you choose to vote, or are at least ok with letting the fascist take over because of inaction. “I’m NoT vOtInG fOr GeNoCiDe” is a stupid argument when not voting is more likely to elect the full throated genocider.
I really don’t see how some people can sleep at night with their choices…
If you can’t vote for no genocide, then you are in a sham democracy.
You know that just means you’re picking the worst of the two, right?
It starts to get quite boring, is that all you people have? He’s old yeah, both are, but Biden won’t run the country all by himself you know. About the genocide, he sure could have tried to do more, but how in hell is that his fault? I mean are all politicians worldwide genociders because they didn’t stop the horrors in Gasa?
Grow up.
Trump is only 4 years younger than Biden. They could’ve gone to high school together. Lol
I think they were calling them both genocidal geriatrics.
I will never vote for Joe Biden again.
feelin mighty happy I voted for Gloria La Riva
I’d like to ask why, but I’m not sure I want the answer.
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Idiot
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Fascist idiot
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Bot
I’d bet money it’s one of these three.
Given the replies that I didn’t ask for, I’m going to vote that it’s one of the first two.
You literally responded to my post asking why.
No, I said I wanted to ask why (Aka, I have the curiousity to want to ask), then expressed that I didn’t really want to know the answer, which you still took as me asking, however, I didn’t ask. I only expressed that I wanted to.
lol
Did you also have trouble in grade school asking if you can go to the bathroom, only to have the teacher all you “I don’t know, can you?” Then you got annoyed by it because you didn’t understand their point?
Were you one of those kids?
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Biden is the architect over 52 years in politics of an astounding number of this nations problems and many that affect me personally. He was a bridge too far in 2012 after I learned he wasnt just Obamas weird acting old guy vp.
I can’t comprehend how anyone was able to vote for him in 2020 and it’s deeply disturbing that anyone would support him now.
You can’t comprehend Trump?
…mmmmm
If you believe that trump is an existential threat, saw what happened last time he was declared the loser of an election, recognize that the right is making plans to enact their policy through administrative action (project 2025) and you think it matters how you vote I frankly don’t know what to say.
I mean, sure, vote for Biden if you can keep your lunch down long enough, but that shouldn’t matter one whit compared to how well you prepare for an enhanced replay of January sixth.
I do not believe trump is an existential threat. The right can’t gas up the slow slouch into fascism because it would necessitate fucking up the stock market shell game bag and they won’t do that.
We’re going to get the same shit as last time except this time his administration will have done their homework and won’t have to seethe as wall materials get sold off for scrap value.
Trump isn’t an existential threat??? He is the goddamn reason Biden is president…
Plus he’s Putinz pissboy puppet.
I swear to god.
Hey, you remember that country we spent fifty years undermining and sabotaging that finally succumbed in the 90s and was sold off for scrap? Well it’s back and it’s in control of one of our political candidates!
Russigate is a busybox for sequel brained liberals. It’s qanon for the actblue set.
the genocide?
it’s already happening…
Voting is about picking your opponents, not your teammates.
I’m voting for Biden because I don’t want Trump picking the next couple Supreme Court justices.
this vould almost be a valid single issue to single-issue-vote at this point. the supreme court has been aging incredibly poorly and the republican candidate is running a platform to make it worse.
but im seeing so many comments (edit: including OP and the admin of a very popular instance?) who are down to abstain the vote, ignoring this AND all the other oppression that another maga win would be about, because we have let the “both sides are bad and voting is a blood pact” propoganda take over for the past decade.
both sides are not equally bad and voting is not a blood pact.
Not only could he pick the next ones, he would have the power to expand the Supreme Court. Imagine a SCOTUS that isn’t just filled with Federalist Society goons but his own special brand of Conservative from places like the Fifth Circuit in Texas.
Instead, we’re going to elect democrats who won’t do anything for however many decades it takes for the current conservative justices to get old and then, when the time is right, they’ll show their cunning strategy for saving the court: Putting forward a slightly less conservative justice that they won’t even fight for enough to push past republican objections.
Meanwhile: We’re drowning!
This guy gets it.
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Do you not remember the entire fiasco with Obama’s failed attempt at selecting a justice? He picked a “moderate,” the Republicans stonewalled him until the election, and instead of trying to use any of the procedural tricks to push through the appointment that the Republicans would gladly use, the Democrats didn’t put up a fight. Fast forward, Trump wins the election, appoints his justices, and Democrats let it go through.
If this is an issue where democracy and rights are at stake and if democrats actually gave a crap they wouldn’t be playing by the rules and then accepting the slide into fascism that all this represents.
But for the elite of the party, none of this shit matters. They aren’t really bound by the same laws as the rest of us. So who cares if the plebs lose some rights? If anything it’s a positive for them. They get to run on being opposed to the bad stuff they let the Republicans do instead of anything positive and they fundraise like crazy over the fear that generates.
For the Democratic base: They’re just watching a fucking TV show. Politics isn’t a real thing to them. They say they see this slide into fascism, but then the most they’re willing to do about it is go check a box once every 2/4 years and then accept the horrible things that come after because respecting the system is more important than protecting people from it. Maybe the really “radical” ones will go to some march to hold up signs in a spot that’s not gonna bother anyone and then go home after regardless of if that changed anything.
Meanwhile, their continued uncritical support of the government enables that government to keep working to crush more serious opposition to it.
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Did I also miss the part where we got Roe v Wade, etc back? Has this translated into changes to defend our rights? If not, why isn’t more being done? Procedure? Rules? Why should any of that supersede protecting real people? And what about the more direct attacks on our rights coming directly from the administration such as once again expanding the surveillance state?
As far as my own participation: I’m not doing anything, and that’s distressing, but were this merely a matter of laziness I’d just be voting. It’s not that hard to vote, at least not in my area. I haven’t formed my entire politics around not wanting to drive like <5 minutes to a local poling station once every few years. In 2020 I actually volunteered for 2 different campaigns during the primaries because I still had some fleeting belief that we could change things that way. I don’t know why, I had already learned a lot of the history which informs my lack of faith in the system. But maybe it’s just easier thinking you can change things without the risk of getting shot.
The liberal’s political responsibilities demand almost nothing of them. Vote from a list of 2 things once in a while, perhaps even less than that if the position isn’t contested or one of the choices is a non-choice. After that, shut up and let others do the thinking and politics for you.
Anything more than that, which risks running into the apparatus of state violence, is “the wrong way to do things.” We should just be patient, trust our institutions, and continue to believe in the myth of steady progress over time.
As scary as that is, there are people out there who are brave or desperate enough to be risking their lives to fight the system. I can’t really blame people for being too scared to join in, but I can blame them for insisting that their minimal political participation to support the government that fights against those people is actually a good thing.
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True, but those are our two choices. Status quo or hard Conservative Authoritarianism. There is no third option, no matter how much wishing, whinging, or opining people engage in.
If we want a third option, we’ll have to start working towards that possibility the very second Biden gets reelected. If Trump wins, then we’re fucked for the next 40 years, at least.
Also, we have the chance to take back the House and keep the Senate. Republicans may be irrelevant in the decision to choose the next justices, should Biden win. There’s a lot at stake in this next election.
Why don’t we just start [redacted] the government? Or work on getting a third option right now?
Because it’s too late. What do you think you can achieve in seven months? You’d have to unite leftist Boomers, Gen X, Millennials, and Gen Z and convince them that your plan (third party voting or “industrial action”) is better than the relatively safe option of simply going out and voting for Biden.
And not only that, but thanks to FPTP, convincing people to join you also means convincing people that it won’t throw the election to Trump, whose party reliably turns out to vote for more Republicans.
Unless you know something I don’t, we’re about four years too late to build the momentum needed to make dramatic changes.
You know you can make change outside the official channels, right?
Such as? Do you mean revolt? If that’s what you mean, just say it: you want a revolution. I don’t know why you’re being coy about it.
But my core point is that you still have to convince everybody else that revolution or civil disobedience are worth losing their security and privilege. You can’t do this alone, and 100,000 people online who share your ideals aren’t anywhere near the same as feet on the ground.
we’ll have to start working towards that possibility the very second Biden gets reelected
I’ve been here before. The second Biden gets reelected, the tune will shift from “we’ll have to start working towards that possibility the very second Biden gets reelected” to “we’ll have to start working towards that possibility after the first year of his second term, since that’s the only time Biden can get things done” to “we’ll have to start working towards that possibility the very second democrats win in 2026” ad nauseam. The time for change is now or the time for change is never.
The time for change is now or the time for change is never.
Okay. What do you expect you can do in seven months? Because you don’t just have to convince people like you—there’s not enough of you to do anything but throw the election to Trump. You’ll have to convince the leftist Boomers, Gen X, Millennials, and Gen Z who don’t share your particular views that it’s worth doing something drastic and potentially dangerous.
You’ll have a much better chance of doing that when you have four years of “status quo” than 4+ years of hard right authoritarianism.
You’ll have to convince the leftist Boomers, Gen X, Millennials, and Gen Z who don’t share your particular views that it’s worth doing something drastic and potentially dangerous.
I mean, yes. That is what I am trying, in a very small way, to do.
You’ll have a much better chance of doing that when you have four years of “status quo” than 4+ years of hard right authoritarianism.
I’m not an accelerationist. I have nothing against voting for Biden as harm reduction. And I want to be clear that what I’m about to say is not me advocating for voting for Trump, which I view as a morally reprehensible and disgusting act. But you are just wrong; 4+ years of hard right authoritarianism will likely make those people much more likely to understand that something drastic and potentially dangerous is necessary. Again to be clear: that one good thing doesn’t justify the rest of what will happen under a Trump admin, and people should not vote for him.
My point is that whatever you think should be done after Biden gets elected, you should just do now, because if you wait, you’ll be waiting forever.
Our two glorious parties
A corpofacist theocracy.
A corporate theocratic controlled opposition party.
2 points:
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Why is the republican the line for hard core authoritarianism? What the hell do you call it when the government does massive expansions to the military, police, and surveillance state while also designating left wing activists, including climate activists, as domestic terrorists? What about trying to undo the damage caused by the Supreme Court taking away people’s rights? If the republican’s actions were subversions of democracy, then surely it would be justified to take actions outside of normal law to oppose that. But they won’t do that, because at best the democrats are collaborators and more realistically, they’re just the faction of fascists with a better marketing department.
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There is a third option: Join up with your fellow workers/citizens/people around the world to work towards something actually productive. Join/organize a union. Sharpen your pitchforks. Destroy some pipelines. Become the domestic terrorist they’ve already labeled you as. That path won’t be any different under a democrat or republican president because both are just as adamant about maintaining the power of the state and capital over people.
If your plan is to vote for one fascist then wish for the system to reform itself, I have 200+ years of history to show to you.
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I did not say “hard core authoritarianism.” Go back and reread what I wrote. I said “hard Conservative Authoritarianism.” Biden is authoritarian, and I never said otherwise. Biden is not a Conservative (capital “C”).
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Okay. You be the one to start it. Put up or shut up. I’m not interested in this option until I see the ideologues and tankies brave enough to talk about this online doing it in reality. If all you have is, “C’mon bro! We just need to band together,” then it’s not much of a movement. Meanwhile, I plan to hold my nose and vote for Biden, because at least that’s an actionable plan.
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What?
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One of these things requires effort and involves risk and the other does not. But only one of these things does anything if you end up doing it. Yeah. I’m not doing anything at the moment because I’m depressed, anxious, and don’t really know anyone I live near. I should be doing more, but it’s hard. But you know what I’m not doing? I’m not carrying water for fascists. If you want to talk about harm reduction, for as little as that matters, that inaction is doing less harm than your inaction of telling people to shut up and go tick a box to say they’re ok with fascists.
And see, that’s where we disagree. I see no evidence that Biden is a fascist (authoritarian ≠ fascist). If you want to convince me he’s a fascist, I’m going to need you to define what a fascist is and how Biden fits that definition.
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Yall said we could push Biden further left. The election cycle is such that there is always the next election, and we arent allowed to complain about the candidate, for fear of hurting their chances.
Its rigged against progressives
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Pardon my ignorance as a non-American, but weren’t there rumblings of Biden being able to do the same, back around the time of the RBG debacle?
Yep, and he didn’t out of some misguided belief that Republicans would behave with some amount of human decency. Unfortunately, the Republicans he knew from his time as a Congressman had given up decorum and bipartisanship for their personal ideologies and fealty to a fraudster.
It would have been and still is the sensible thing to do, because the highest judiciary should be the least partisan, and it’s a progressive move Biden really should make in an effort to maintain that balance.
Still would’ve needed congress to expand the court and no way in hell would Manchin or sinema ever have gone along w Biden
Im voting for him because he is the best president of my lifetime with the possible exception of carter.
As a person Carter will be hard as hell to beat…
hes the closest thing to mister rogers as president.
I’m curious what you think makes him better than Obama?
Obama got almost nothing done in his first term mainly do to trying to work across the isle. Biden was not shackled with this given how clearly republicans have made it that they are not going to work in good faith at all.
Biden isn’t working across the aisle? Several of Biden’s initiatives have been bipartisan. If anything, I think his greatest achievement has been getting bipartisan support during the most politically divided times since the civil war.
Every time I see a vote its mostly party line with possibly a few “defectors”. Its crazy how partisan it is now
I’m voting for Trump because I have no concept of mitigating damage.
He sure does know how to increase entropy fast(er)
I’m voting for biden so that the Ukraine money drain gets more money to drain
The entire system is fucked and first past the post needs to go away at all levels.
He’s desperately trying to stop things, but he is completely powerless and that’s not his fault, but also he has actually gotten tons of great stuff done and you’re just ignoring it, and you should ignore the bad stuff he’s done because his opponent will do worse, but most importantly any good stuff he hasn’t done was impossible for him to get done, and that’s why you should vote for him
Joe Biden, the most powerful person in the world, is completely powerless and it’s not his fault. Meanwhile if Trump is elected it’s the end of American democracy.
this makes so much sense!!!1!!11!!!
Yeah, because one follows the law and the constitution (to at least some degree) and one doesn’t. It’s really that simple
Personally, I hear you, but his denial about the campus protests is definitely gonna make things worse for garnering the young vote.
No, you don’t hear them. They, and OP are mocking libs telling people to vote for a candidate who demonstrates over and over that they do not want the things we want, and will either not stop or help republicans do the things they want.
It’s kind of sad, they understand the democrats do not want the things they want, so they cannot influence them into doing the things that will win the election, so all they can do is tell people not to believe their lying eyes.
What’s the alternative, give the country over to Trump and his sycophants? No one likes what’s happening but as much as I want a change in the current trajectory everything would just be worse under Trump, not just Palestinian conflict.
He’s desperately trying to stop things
he’s literally sending israel more bombs for their genocide
you should ignore the bad stuff he’s done
you absolutely should not write him a blank check to commit more atrocities
his opponent will do worse
and you and your fellow democratic voters will continue to stand by and watch it happen, right?
I’m pretty sure @[email protected] was being ironic there
i don’t trust like that
I was being ironic. Fuck Genocide Joe and the people giving him cover.
they’re lampooning liberals’ circular reasoning
Of all the strawmen that bear no resemblance to the the real thing people are saying this is a big strawman one
I can’t tell you how much of a relief it is to see an instance with a name as normal as midwest.social that still has good opinions, every time I see that suspicious fish face I’m pleasantly surprised by the humanity it expresses.
I’ve found Midwest.Social to be both wholesome and pleasantly left-leaning.
