• SigloPseudoMundo@lemmy.ml
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    1 year ago

    I’d say the issue is split between those who want to join and those who want to stay. Your problem is with international law which respects the territorial sovereignty of nations and does not recognize a right of sucession by a group unless their right of internal self determination is compromised. In this case the Ukrainian constitution requires a referendum of all Ukrainian people. Keeping that one mind Here’s a question for you:

    Are you of the opinion that the people of chechnia wanted to be a part of Russia? Those guys full on declared independence & had elections in 1991 LMFAO

    • MultigrainCerealista [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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      1 year ago

      unless their right of internal self determination is compromised

      Oh wait what’s that?

      Lmao that’s what happened after the Ukrainian nationalists starting arming Nazi militias and banned their political parties you clown.

      Banning their political parties and denying them the right to use their own language or practice their own religion or have their own political representation is called denying them their right to internal self determination.

      • SigloPseudoMundo@lemmy.ml
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        1 year ago

        Yeah banning pro Russian parties after Russia invaded them? Kinda a no brainer. + Russia was arming separatists first you chung mungus. I noticed you didn’t answer my question

        Are you of the opinion that the people of chechnia wanted to be a part of Russia? Those guys full on declared independence & the independence leader got 90% of the vote

        • MultigrainCerealista [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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          1 year ago

          You: let’s talk about something else because I’m feeling really fucking stupid right now

          I guess you’re saying you fully support Putin’s crackdown on Grozny then right?

          Get your deflecting moronic ass out of here and have a think about what you are actually supporting right now and today in Ukraine.

          Because you’re not supporting democracy and freedom. Not at all.

          • SigloPseudoMundo@lemmy.ml
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            1 year ago

            I’m a realist because even though it’s not morally right I understand that on the international stage might makes right. I don’t agree with it but authoritarian countries with strong armies can coerce weaker countries & entities into capitulating (check out findlandization). If you were knowledgeable you’d know that no other countries recognized chechen independence either, perhaps because the ruskies declared the elections illegal the day before they happened… Reminds of another recent situation huh? It’s okay to feel conflicted those contradictions can allow you to analyze why you held certain beliefs to begin with and is the beginning to a more complex understanding of events.

            • MultigrainCerealista [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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              1 year ago

              Im glad you acknowledge that Ukraine and the west does not have a moral leg to stand on but I hope you eventually take the next step and recognize that means the hundreds of thousands of dead and permanently injured Ukrainians and Russians makes this a moral travesty and a crime against humanity.

              Recognizing the moral right lies with the separatists but choosing to support the use of military force against them because “fuck Russia” makes you the bad guy.

        • CriticalResist8@lemmygrad.ml
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          1 year ago

          Those guys full on declared independence & the independence leader got 90% of the vote

          I don’t recognize the result of this referendum 🤓

          • SigloPseudoMundo@lemmy.ml
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            1 year ago

            I hope you meant that ironically lol Neither did the Russian government, they declared it illegal the day before the vote.

    • CriticalResist8@lemmygrad.ml
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      1 year ago

      Since you want to quote laws you should be aware that since parts of the Donbass are occupied by Russia (namely Luhansk and Donetsk oblasts), Ukrainian law does not apply there. The territories, until the referendum was held, fell under UN Occupation Law because it was “actually placed under the authority of the adverse foreign armed forces”(source: https://casebook.icrc.org/a_to_z/glossary/occupation).

      The occupation extends only to the territory where such authority has been established and can be exercised. A State’s territory may therefore be partially occupied, in which case the laws and obligations of occupation apply only in the territory that is actually occupied. When a State consents to the presence of foreign troops there is no occupation.

      Ukrainian law does not apply to territories under Russian authority.

      • SigloPseudoMundo@lemmy.ml
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        1 year ago

        Lol is that the Kremlin crackpot loop hole? Step 1 invade a country Step 2 have a totally legit election Step 3 annex after a totally not sham referendum Step 4 borders? What borders? Partial occupation is fine Step 5 blame Western powers

        Rosemary DiCarlo said it best, “Unilateral actions aimed to provide a veneer of legitimacy to the attempted acquisition by force by one State of another State’s territory while claiming to represent the will of the people, cannot be regarded as legal under international law”

        • CriticalResist8@lemmygrad.ml
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          1 year ago

          Doesn’t matter what you think, I’m using the UN definition which you should lap up like the good liberal dog you are. It’s not even what I think, it’s literally what UN countries have agreed to.

          • SigloPseudoMundo@lemmy.ml
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            1 year ago

            No you’re not, u found 2 paragraphs that kinda say what you want and went from there. Do I need to repeat the steps to the crackpot Kremlin loop hole until you see how silly they sound?

            Rosemary Anne DiCarlo (born 1947) is an American diplomat who has served as United Nations Under-Secretary-General for Political and Peacebuilding Affairs since May 2018. She previously served as acting United States Ambassador to the United Nations[1] following the resignation of Susan Rice to become the National Security Advisor.

            I wonder if the ambassador to the United nations or a tankie on an Internet forum is more educated about UN occupations…

    • GarbageShoot [he/him]@hexbear.net
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      1 year ago

      Your problem is with international law which respects the territorial sovereignty of nations and does not recognize a right of sucession by a group unless their right of internal self determination is compromised. In this case the Ukrainian constitution requires a referendum of all Ukrainian people

      So when rightists oppose secession because, while they hate the ethnic Russians who want to leave, they don’t want those ethnic Russians taking the land, etc. with them, we should be moved by this motivation and not consider the right of self-determination compromised?