I’ve been looking for a new job as a software developer. The huge majority of job listings I see in my area are hybrid or remote. I just had an introductory phone call with Vizio (which didn’t specify the location type in the job listing). The recruiter told me that the job was fully on-site, which I told her was a deal breaker for me.
It makes me wonder how many other people back out after hearing that the job is on-site. And it makes me wonder why this wasn’t specified in the job description. I assume most people only want hybrid or remote jobs these days, right?
Anyways I was just wondering how many of you guys apply for on-site IT jobs? Hybrid is so much better, I don’t know why people would apply for on-site jobs unless they have no other options.
My ask is 4x salary for in office.
It’s usually met with “Well, that’s not going to happen…”
To which I reply “I know, right?”
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Instead, the people offering the largest salaries are mostly remote-only.
People that value your work value your work, I guess.
How to win against the dead-sea effect, I guess.
My ask is
You mean ‘request’, right? You need to leave the used-car-salesbro jargon at the lot, man.
But I run a surcharge as well, and it’s prohibitive for some. It’s about 40% more for the first day in the office, and 20% more for each day-per-week after that, to 120% surcharge at most. I put the interview answers in the spreadsheet, and when they ask about Salary I tell them how it’s based on the per-person rent of a 2-bedroom condo closest to the work location and a percentage surcharge or rebate based on the job attributes. Either that’s too offbeat or detailed for them, and they sometimes get sad for one or both of those reasons.
Software update policy, dress code (there’s a difference between ‘casual’ and ‘business casual’), a tax for Teams or Office or Outlook, mandatory standby, forced field work, 9x9 schedule, etc. I don’t have a tax for ‘distance from nearest commuter train station’ but it’s coming.
Absolute.com (security not vodka) was down to $85k, though, as it was so awesome. But ohhh, if MDA or the BoC had bit, it would’ve been nearly $500k as they had SO many problems.
No, I mean “my ask.”
Not jargon. Recognized by the Oxford advanced learner’s dictionary. Perhaps your understanding of English is not “advanced”.
It is what I am asking. It is my ask.
What an absurdly pointless hair to attempt to split. It’d be one thing if you were being inquisitive, but you’re out here just confidently incorrecting people lmao.
Stay in school, kiddo.
It makes me wonder how many other people back out after hearing that the job is on-site. And it makes me wonder why this wasn’t specified in the job description
They’re trying not to get filtered by having it listed as on site up front, and banking on people saying “well, I’m already foot in the door i guess i could settle” once the interview process starts.
Which is already a red flag right there. Too bad there are no real consequences for their attempting to lie & cheat their way towards finding someone willing to put up with their BS, and at this point I don’t mean the on-site factor that is perhaps a legit need that they may have. It’s just how capitalism works, except that they’d really rather it work for rather than against them…:-(
I’ve been remote for over a decade; not going to stop now.
Same here. There is no reason to make me far less productive other than I’m pretty and people want to gaze at me adoringly in an office setting. It’s a weird fetish I guess, but I’ve seen weirder.
Not even for a “Fruity Tuesday”???
Shit i just realized I’ve been doing remote for about 7 years now.
Also not going to stop. No reason to especially since my team is spread across the states.
I’d consider one, but it’d have to pay considerably more. Like, 50% or more above what I’d otherwise expect for a fully remote position, and it would have to be an easy commute.
In most cases it’s adding 20-30% to the length of the work day when the commute is included, plus costs of transportation itself. Plus the general inconvenience and the fact that it’s almost always going to mean a more toxic culture. But if the pay and benefits were absolutely fantastic, I’d consider it, at least short-term.
And the commute is considered working hours. An hour commute means I’m in the office 9-3. With a lunch break.
the commute is considered working hours.
I think in Germany that’s part of the labour code: the clock runs the entirety of the time you’ve left the house on their instruction.
Doesn’t that encourage urban sprawl?
Another user was demanding 4x salary for in office, I would consider a 20% pay bump per in office day a reasonable request that likely results in a remote contract. It’s essentially saying it will cost you double to make me come in for that day.
IT guy here, I absolutely hate working from home, I want separation between my work life and my home life.
I need that to change my brain from home mode to work mode.
Fellow IT guy here, I absolutely hate working from the office. Home life is my life and work life only matters to me insofar as it’s necessary to my home life.
Anything taking my brain from home mode to work mode is an obstacle that should be avoided.
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I am sure they do enjoy it, just as I don’t.
Yep, totally this.
I occationally have to fix stuff on the weekend and even than I’ll rather go to the office than doing it from home.
Also I have different monitor/keyboard/mouse setups and I really don’t like working on my home setup.
I took up online tutoring and teaching programming for kids. It has great benefits:
- It’s an hour or so after work, it has a fixed schedule so it forces me to clock out
- it makes me focus hard so I completely forget about work
- it pays for itself (not my corporate day-job rate, but I’m not doing it for free)
- I can try out languages and tech I’d normally wouldn’t be able to in my day job, or I’d have to invest my free time for a side project
- I have a background in teaching… I like it, it’s fun and refreshing
- I’ve helped many kids jump start their interest in programming even in families that know nothing about tech at all. I’ve helped a few of them to get accepted to the school they wanted to and pursue a career in programming
All in all, teaching after work makes for a great hobby and a strong barrier for my day job so I don’t find myself working late anymore.
For me that’s achieved by being 6 timezones ahead - I finish work, turn off my computer and go to sleep.
From what I’ve heard, most people that are for in office work like having the separation between work and home.
That being said, I think most folks want remote work or at least remote hybrid. It just makes more sense especially for me. I live far from my office (140 mile drive roundtrip), and working 3 days a week from home has been a god send.
I did notice that the only people not opting for WFH/hybrid at my last job were all the married-with-kids types who hated being around their family and used work as an escape. It was really sad to see lol
There’s a psychological stress with work that can take some time to slough off.
Some people don’t want to log out of work and be grumpy or distracted during family time.
That being said having a process or system as a habit to denote work/home is a good alternative.
A 10 minute walk, a change of clothes, or some song you play, anything that creates a mental delineation. So the annoyance from that way too long meeting asking why something isn’t done (4 hours a day giving out status updates isn’t helping) doesn’t come out on the family.
That’s understandable but like… you could go to a coffee shop or literally rent office space nearby to where you live - it doesn’t have to be all one way or the other. Anyway, if they truly do enjoy being surrounded by people then I don’t want to knock their totally valid preferences, just to say that there are other ways.
There’s also a huge value to people working in the same space.
Random conversations solve a lot of problems.
And I’m someone that finds being in an office around people constantly to be exhausting. I just recognize the value.
You can replicate that remotely. I’ve had days where 2-3 people joined a call to share something and then kept that call in the background for hours, chatting about random things while working.
I can chat with someone for hours on end, but I also like using my own toilet, and having access to a tea, snack, etc.
For me, what blocks having random conversations is having 1-3 hours of status updates daily - it doesn’t leave much leftover to do the work especially when my firm declaration that it was going to take twice as long as someone else estimated (and then sure enough it did, at minimum, and maybe taking 10x) is ignored. That would block conversations regardless?
Anyway, the conversations are the content, but them being present physically is only the medium, so WFH does not need to block them, and if anything can help facilitate them e.g. working one in-between other meetings whereas the time taken to physically walk over would have been prohibitive.
Random conversations solve a lot of problems.
Trends indicate no. The odds of that vs the costs of the distractions - because Mike, I swear to god, you keep clicking that pen and I’m gonna find a new home for it - don’t make it a winning choice.
In 2002 we solved this with an open skype call where everyone was muted. Convos were easy to start (alt-space to unmute and start talking), which created some distraction but not like Larry and his goddamned sad cowboy music.
because Mike, I swear to god, you keep clicking that pen and I’m gonna find a new home for it
Hahahahah, oh man, I hear ya!
Seriously, I’m as anti-social as they come, but I’ve learned the value of people being in the same space. It’s the way we’re wired, and no, calls/video/virtual stuff is no replacement.
And I’ve had a million random conversations between calls/meetings that have solved many issues, or provided opportunity for improving relationships, etc. These conversations just don’t happen when you’re remote - I say this as someone who’s worked hybrid since the 90’s - there’s no replacement for being in the same space. Again, I’m someone that finds being in the office exhausting - I’d rather be remote.
There’s also a huge value to people working in the same space.
Random conversations solve a lot of problems.
If only we had decent VR headsets that were comfortable to wear all day I wouldn’t mind replicating that in a “virtual office”
Unfortunately, even Apple wasn’t able to solve the comfortability problem.
Not wanting to work in a crowded home has nothing to do with disliking your family. Kids are loud. They run around the house. They watch TV with the volume set too high. They have excited calls with their friends. Many home builders skimp on noise insulation for interior walls.
From my open office experience, it is often not better with colleagues. A lot of noise, distractions, useless conversations. That is not as bad as kids, but this is why I always dreamt to WFH. I will always be grateful to the person who under cooked that bat in 2019.
My brain definitely focuses better with environmental cues. I mean, I can work just about anywhere, but if I’m not in the mood, then having the environmental cues displaces alternatives. Subjectively, I feel more productive at work. Never had a really bad commute, so I was never motivated to try to set up a ‘work-only’ space at home, but I’d only do a 70 mile one-way drive for very special occasions.
most people that are for in office work like having the separation between work and home.
My apartment offers wework-style glass cube space, as well as (totally unused) conference space on the 30th floor. Big conference TV, kitchenette, global supra high-back seating (good-not-amazing) and panoramic river views.
We had an IT person quit this year because we transitioned to fully remote after they closed down the office in December 2020. He couldn’t handle working from home.
Some people probably do not have home lives that they enjoy, I can imagine that.
It’s not necessarily that they dislike the people, either. It could be an issue if the other people/animals at home aren’t cooperative with your need to work, despite being lovely in normal home situations. It could be a total lack of cooperative workspace - no desk space, too cluttered, areas already dedicated to other home tasks, noisy neighbors, easy distractions, etc. And then some people are just wholly impatient, who can’t identify what they need to make their home space more like their office space. Personally, I played a bunch of video games in 2020. I felt I performed better overall because blocking off an hour of game campaign kept me off my phone most of the day. Now I sit in an office again, scrolling here for more than an hour each day.
But yes, I had a number of coworkers in 2020 that came back as soon as they could in order to get away from their families again. Work was their herculean daily task that gave them an excuse to be away from families and be too tired to engage with them after work. The kind that always joked “gonna go home, hit the wife, and fuck the dog”
It’s not always outright negativity, but it can be.
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when companies have spy software gauging every minute
It’s not WHY people quit, but it’s why they don’t stay.
I have plenty of coworkers that are thrilled when we have an in-office event. And some that choose to go there to work every day.
I can’t understand them, but well, it makes them happy.
thrilled when we have an in-office event. And some [who] choose to go there
We call these ‘extroverts.’ We don’t understand them, but we can point them out.
Personally I just like my colleagues so it’s fun to be around them for the most part, and there are better lunch options around the office in my case (plus I’d never bother going somewhere when I’m home anyway). It being easier to just quickly ask a question is nice too. Also gets me actually out of the house and cycling for ~40 minutes a day. I also get way more done at work because working at the same pc I spend 90% of my free time at is not great at motivating my brain to do work.
Still, if I didn’t have the option to just stay home when I don’t feel like going to the office/am waiting for a package or something, I’d find that very annoying.
You’re talking specifically about software based IT jobs.
Those of us who deal with the hardware have always been and will always be on-site and hands on.
I don’t want to bring work into my home, plus I like meeting people. The only problem is the commute.
I work with a few who prefer the office over work from home. I think they need a way to escape the house/wife/kids and the office is the only quiet place they have to work.
I work with a few who prefer the office over work from home.
It does allow for a more clean break between work and non-work mindset.
I find it helps maintain a more healthy work-life balance.
Plus, I work on hardware, so it’s not like I can do that remotely most of the time anyway.
I dont know if I agree with the work life balance.
Shower, groom, dress and commute starting at 6.30am, work 8.30–5.30 and commute to 6.30/7
or work 8.45-5.15ish and maybe spend an extra hour or two coupla times a week?
Huge difference.
I think I may be the only person on the face of the earth with no preference on this. My commute is immaterial, the office about 2k away, working from home is kind of a drag but I don’t have to get dressed and can keep the household going (which is part of why it’s a drag) online meetings suck even more than in person meetings, otherwise fine to work remotely. So when we were working from home, I was fine with it, then hybrid I thought would be the worst of all, no, it was fine. Now they say come in at least 3 days, I am going to put away the home workstation and just work at the office, reclaim the space at home, that’s fine too. It’s pretty much the same job either way.
My team moved to fully remote a month ago. I’m loving it so far.
Getting to see my little girl throughout my day makes me feel like I’m not missing out on watching her grow up.
I enjoy office work more than wfh because I genuinely like the people I work with and I think we riff off each other way better in person
I have only ever worked on-site jobs, so I am very used to it. The main plus for me is interacting with my co-workers. You run into the occasional jerk or someone having a bad day, but usually it is a great way to learn new things and gain different perspectives.
I might get down voted, but even for software dev, not all jobs can be done remotely. Software may need to interact with hardware, which requires to be on site. I am all in for hybrid or remote work, but totally see why some jobs require to be “on site”
I am an embedded developer, I take the HW from office to bring at home, in the basement I have my “home office” with benches, soldering station, oscilloscope, etc so I can fully develop here. Working on a kitchen corner table would not be doable, true
While definitely true, then it still shouldn’t be required to come in at all times. Hopefully, you can automate tests to the point where you do not need to physically interact with real hardware every day. And then it should be up to you, whether you want to come in or not.
My dad is the only human being I know that likes his on-site IT job, but that’s probably because he’s getting away from the miserable woman he married for a few hours a day.
I was in that boat for a bit but it was my mentally ill adult child that I needed a break from.
Different boat. You didn’t choose that. Best wishes!
All good!
My company went remote first in April 2020. Even if I left here, there’s no way in hell I’m going back to an office.
I guess I’m rare in that I like working in an office. My house is for relaxing and enjoying my time, so the few times I did WFH I really just want to curl up on the couch instead of work.
Keep this in mind, some places raises will barely cover inflation.
Now factor in gas and, most importantly, time spent commuting.
All that on top of effectiveness in working with social interruptions, trips to the coffee machine, bathroom breaks, lunch, etc.
Any of these businesses that are pushing for on-site are locked into costs from renting space - guarantee it. I get wanting to do the occasional face showing or in person meetings, but they should be concise and few in number - if they’re an efficient shop. Plenty of new blood that get the value of hybrid/remote work.
