What makes someone’s personality attractive (there are limits to what you can do about appearances) is self confidence and giving the impression that you have something interesting going on. Essentially you need to seem exciting to be around. That doesn’t even mean like skydiving but just having hobbies you are passionate about.
Self-improvement might be one way of getting there but it’s mainly a case of being comfortable in your own skin. I think this is why so many incels get confused about going to the gym not immediately making them desirable.
Lastly, you need to be genuinely interested in any potential partner as a person. People can sense when they are talking to someone with ulterior motives. This might be the biggest hurdle for hetro mysogynists who don’t see women as people.
I would even say don’t worry too much about self-improvement. It’s a vague concept that encourages you to be perpetually dissatisfied (possibly to sell you stuff).
You can always be satisfied with who you are. Remember how Mr. Rogers likes you just the way you are? You can extend that kindness to yourself. Once you’ve done that, then you are in the right headspace to lose some weight or improve your income or whatever.
I like the idea of self-improvement in the sense of becoming even more yourself. I believe there is some kind of path(s) in each of us. It takes effort to recognise it – you can say: accept it – and even more to actually pursue it filtering out from the external noise all influences that do not fit. We all have ideas, dreams and wishes, but we have to listen carefully to hear them.
I don’t think you are totally wrong here, but I also want to push back a bit. I’ve seen this kind of take before, and heard it in a different form when I was struggling in my dating life. It took the form “you need to figure out {internal issue} before you start dating.” And the more I read it, the more frustrated I got, because the advice seemed to boil down to “you will only be ready to date once you have committed to a buddhist monastery, meditated for 10 years straight, and achieved enlightenment. Once all desire has left your heart - including the desire to date someone - you will be ready to date.”
Which is, of course, ridiculous. Overcoming your internal struggles or learning to love yourself is a process. It is a process that almost everyone is engaging in. And no one (or almost no one) really reaches the destination permanently.
Furthermore, we should recognize that overcoming your internal struggles can’t happen in a vacuum - or at least it will be a lot harder that way. Like, really, what should our incel friend do with their time? Literally the exact same thing they’ve been doing their whole lives, except they go to therapy once per week? If that is really all they can manage, I totally support that and applaud them for putting that effort in. But realistically, that needs to be a first step that leads to further action if they ever want to see significant changes in themselves and their lives.
If they have social anxiety, to overcome it they must go out into the world and talk to people. And by actually going out and doing something with the intention of improving yourself and your life, you learn to love yourself more. In this case, you might learn that people are generally nice, and will be nice to you. You might be proud of yourself for overcoming your fears and doing something that was difficult for you. And you might love yourself more because you have experienced that you have the capacity to change and become more like the person you want to be.
Of course, if you are truly dedicated to leaving the wheel of samsara, then certainly, focus all your attention on learning to love yourself. But my personal experience is that when I improved myself, my life got better, and I became happier - even if that initial spark of wanting to improve came from feelings of inadequacy or self hatred or frustration or rage. And through the process of improving myself, I was forced to confront my inner demons in a far more visceral way that helped me overcome them. And now that I have improved myself and my life, I am in a much better place to work on my internal world and learn to love myself more.
It’s okay to chase the dragon of self improvement, or of achieving worldly desires. The buddha is equally found on the meditation mat and in the snake oil in the GNC pre-workout aisle.
You’re right. I probably phrased that a bit poorly, especially with respect to “do ___ before ___.” The point I was trying to get across is that this push for self-improvement is often extrinsic and possibly unnecessary.
If chasing money or muscles (or whatever) is something that genuinely excites you, then by all means do that. But if you’re doing it because others tell you that’s what you need to find contentment, then I just want people to know there is another path.
Like, really, what should our incel friend do with their time?
Can’t speak for every incel friend but the one in our group needs to be working on regulating his emotions and not spending so much time on incel forums. Getting comfortable with himself and the fact that not every woman who is nice to him is going to be interested him romantically. He’s in his 30s and still acts like a fucking teenager when he gets rejected. At least 3 of us at different points in time have had to pull him aside and have a talk to him about how his behavior is making the women in our group uncomfortable and explain that if he doesn’t get that shit under control he’s not going to get invited out anymore. Even when he does take up a hobby or work on himself he talks about it like he’s checking off a box so that he can finally deserve to get laid. Then, when that doesn’t work out for him because he reeks of desperation when he interacts with women, he goes back to his bad habits.
I agree, in that “self improvement” is a fairly nebulous concept and acceptance of the self is a positive trait, but they should probably still look to improve themselves. Exercise, volunteer, pick up a hobby outside the house, cut off your toxic community and find another, etc… Volunteering and community tend to go together, from my experience, so I’d start there.
Isn’t self-acceptance considered self-improvement?
Very well said.
Love from others comes after a love of self.
The same is true on a political level which is a crab bucket when they tell you that things can’t improve and that you shouldn’t even have any hopes.
Whenever there’s a post about a protest, or a politician actually works to block a Trump bill, there’s always someone who pops into the comments to go “iT wOn’T cHaNgE aNyThInG.”
It’s pretty clear who’s never taken any sort of political action before in their lives. Those that participate in activism know that change doesn’t happen in one big event, but momentum snowballs over time. Discouraging people who put effort into change only works to empower those who oppress us.
Damn. I know the community tab here says I’m not suppose to agree with anon, but damn, I have to
You… bothered to read the rules… in a 4chan focused community?
Yes
This was a test. You failed.
And by that, I mean you passed.
This tab seems to be written for the mod to deflect accusation of supporting the Lemmy-unapproved dark sides of 4chan that may come up in green texts.
I mean, there’s nothing wrong with improving yourself for the sake of improving yourself.
But what if you improve yourself and then become a better person for nothing? :P
Surprise, surprise, you reached Nirvana.
Then you’ll be more valuable to your corporate masters. Everybody wins!
Robots arms it is
Incels hasn’t been about that in a long time. It’s already evolved into “self-improvement” by adopting far-right extremist ideology. In particular that of being a hyper-masculine bigotted conservative man. Their underlying theory of world is still the same. Love is fake and women cheat and leave you taking all your money unless you become the strong man chad and dominate her. Instead of the pit of self loathing based on the premise that everyone is out to get you. You become the biggest alpha over every other guy. Fundamentally the ideology is the flip side of the same coin. It’s a very dark misanthropic view of the world.
It’s surely been some sort of cult brainwashing. Tear guys down with crab bucket mentality. Then build them up according to their doctrine.
There are some women who want exactly that kind of man. OTOH, even around the reddest part of Florida, most women put something on their dating profile to reject those men. Dated more than ever during the pandemic, yeah, weird, I know, but here’s what I saw and heard.
- Profiles outright saying MAGA can fuck off.
- Profiles saying either they’re “not political” or “no politics”. That’s a dog whistle for no MAGA (more on that).
- Plainly stated liberal views, again, no MAGA.
- Laughingly told one woman before we went out that I was pretty redneck. “Uh, just how redneck?” “I fucking loathe Trump if that’s what you mean.” “OH! Whew. OK.”
- More than one date told me guys either went OFF about Trump or went off on THEM about Trump, on the first date.
- Either they gently probed me on politics or flat out refused to speak of it, at least until they knew for sure I wasn’t MAGA. See note about about first dates.
Despite being a middle-aged white guy, my looks and profile were clearly, to me anyway, liberal. Did quite well! LOL, friends and neighbors were making fun of me regarding all the women in and out the house. (That wasn’t on purpose, most just didn’t work out.) As I said, there were a handful of profiles saying “conservatives only, no liberals”. Given the politics of the region, those were shockingly rare.
I can only imagine that going red ain’t working out so well for incels. And the downward spiral continues.
EDIT: I worked hard on the meme. Please clap.
They took “self-improvement” to mean physical health while completely ignoring mental and emotional health.
physical health is great for passively improving both of those
Being physically healthy makes it much easier to be mentally/emotionally healthy, but they still don’t just get better unless you actively work on them.
“Misery loves company.”
Stephen King’s Misery 2
If anyone hasn’t seen Femcel spaces, you could always go and browse reddit.com/r/femaledatingstrategy
Which is why the Lemmy equivalent has banned that type of thinking/posts.
thinking is overrated anyways
It’s about the same as incel shit really. You’d think it would get banned like incel stuff is, but it’s tolerated because men are not a protected class.
Goddamn right, Bob.
I mean, so unreal and non hetero.
Anon didn’t even suggest incels and femcels trade virginity
Jon Arbuckle dances to the lyric “I’ll either live or die alone”.
Actually, Jon scores 2 by the time The Survey is conducted.
Link is NSFL. Seriously.
Banger!
why label and tribalism. just be you and do you things and if that intersects with someone else or not, who cares, you’re just you as your true self. Leaving that space to find someone is silly nonsense that probably won’t work out well because that person is not the real you. Pursue your curiosities until it takes you to your happy place
Idk, if “doing you” means never leaving home, you’re not getting chances to actually find someone that you intersect with. You do need to make a conscious effort to put yourself out there so you have those chances, and you should put some effort into improving your confidence to maximize your chances. Don’t change who you are to please someone, but do shower and put on a clean shirt.
Not really the point of what I am saying. I am speaking for the other person too without bias or assumptions and I am not pushing anyone to conform to some stereotype. If you’re happy wearing dirty shirts, not showering, and staying at home, that is perfectly valid. You can and should just be yourself. If you feel the need to be someone else or wear any mask of assumption or conformity, you’re potentially hurting someone else and offering a fake version of yourself. If you’re lonely, pursue your curiosity in spaces where other people interact. Don’t just go to where you might find people. You do not exist in that space; that is not you. On a subtle non obvious level, going to a space for not you reasons like this is predatory.
I am actually saying, you’re allowed to be happy or content with whatever state of self awareness and intelligent engagement you push yourself to achieve. The pursuit of raw self motivated curiosity is the only way to expand self awareness from within and grow. When motivated purely from within one’s self, one will eventually achieve one’s true potential while being true to self.
No one deserves to partner with someone that later never showers and never leaves the house after they remove the mask of their true self.
So you see, I’m saying the same thing but with the nuance of the best interests of all parties involved. Don’t tell people to conform to combat loneliness. Make an attempt to inspire their curiosity and self growth if you feel like you’ve spotted some inadequacy, but ultimately let them be themselves so that they are not masking to hurt someone else.
Relationships certainly can and do change people, but let those that want to change someone find their query in the true depths of the coal mine if they choose lest they unwittingly find themselves on an impossible journey to the center of the Earth.
Oh sure, I just read it as validating self-destructive habits of “incels,” where they look for reasons to “justify” their victimhood. They jump to insane extremes, like saying, “I have to completely change everything about myself to get a GF/BF,” but honestly all it really takes is a little bit of confidence (going to meetups you’re interested in helps), practicing reasonable hygiene, and making yourself available.
No one deserves to partner with someone that later never showers and never leaves the house after they remove the mask of their true self.
Sure, but on the flip-side, finding someone you really care about does a lot to motivate you to change your habits to make sure they are comfortable being around you. The first step is finding someone you’re compatible with, and that is unlikely to happen without making an effort.
Don’t tell people to conform to combat loneliness
Right, and that’s not what I’m saying. Instead, I’m saying if you want a thing, there are certain expectations to get it. If you don’t want companionship, that’s totally fine. But if you do and you’re not getting it, there are certain things you need to do to improve your chances, and whining about it online while locking yourself up in your home isn’t it.
It is probably just a me thing, but I had a couple of times in my life where I was in the mindset of putting myself out there, and those were dark times. I never had good results. All of my good long term relationships came from times when I encountered someone adjacent to my other interests.
We are both likely grossly oversimplifying the spectrum of potential human experience. Like I can fake extraversion or play like other types of people than my true introverted self. If I keep my thoughts mostly to myself I become very mysterious to any potential partner because of my scope of hobbies and interests. However, I actually need someone that I can talk to openly and constructively across all of my interests, a person that has a similar scope of their own independent interests. That is something I have learned the hard way. I eventually end most long term relationships when I feel held back by what amounts to a muse. They end up limited to a chapter of my life but not a fully storied main character as I evolve.
Anyways, my point is that when I actively went looking with the purpose of meeting people, I had a terribly disappointing and depressing experience. Maybe an extrovert would have a different experience. To me, shopping for people in places where people shop will likely (stereotypically) yield a shopping type of person that will likely continue to shop or find an irresistible bargain at some point.
The best experiences I had were from those I met that were in coplanar orbits to some interest I had. What I really need has been someone motivated by slow persistent but insatiable curiosity and abstract awareness. I don’t know if I ever would have found such a person in my past life, but the feeling of being held back by someone that lacks the curiosity to grow in parallel with me is untenable and empirically worse than being alone.
It doesn’t matter now that I’m physically disabled with my specific limitations. I’m now content with being alone. I feel it would be unfair to force someone to watch me fall apart and die young due to the shell of who I am now after what I barely survived. This place, through the delay of typed thoughts, is the only place a simulacrum of my former self still exists through the haze of chronic sleep deprivation and pain. So I have no skin in the game, only a reflection on past life experiences free from the addiction of relationships.
All of my good long term relationships came from times when I encountered someone adjacent to my other interests.
Well yeah, “putting yourself out there” doesn’t mean doing things you hate, it means doing things you like that involve other people, but forcing yourself to try doing them with unfamiliar people. If you like board games or whatever, look for a local group at the library or something. But you’re not going to meet new people to play with if you just sit at home.
Don’t go to a dance club if you hate dancing, but that doesn’t mean you should just stay home.
I actually need someone that I can talk to openly and constructively across all of my interests
I don’t think you’ll ever find someone who matches you on all your interests, but hopefully you find someone who is willing to listen to you ramble on about them, and support you pursuing them. They’ll have their own interests as well and expect the same from you.
My wife and I are both fairly introverted, and we met at a school dance that neither of us really wanted to attend. We awkwardly exchanged numbers, then texted for a bit before our first date, which was playing video games at my place. She beat me at a fighting game, and that’s how I knew it’d have a chance at working out. Nothing is perfect, but we have enough overlap to have something to talk about, along with separate interests. We both like video games, but she prefers team games (MMOs, games like REPO, etc), while I like SP games. She likes to paint and read romantic manga, I’m more into sci fi and fantasy novels. We both like movies and road trips, and we have a similar sense of humor.
I sincerely believe you need just a bit of overlap to share common ground, with enough differences to keep things interesting.
I’m now content with being alone.
I hope you can find more than contentment. If not romance, at least a trusting friendship. Maybe you have that, idk, or maybe you’re happier than you’re letting on, my point is that I believe everyone deserves to be happy, but that often requires a bit of discomfort to “put yourself out there” and make it possible to find fulfilling companionship.
Everyone is different of course, I just feel bad when I see someone blaming everyone else for their loneliness. That doesn’t seem to be the case for you, I’m more referring to the OP here (and honestly, most of my comment here is in that context).
Anyway, finding a good fit is really hard, especially as you get older, since there are naturally fewer people available and everyone seems to be busy. Anyway, good luck with whatever fulfills you, and I hope something you or I wrote here helps someone.
It is kinda hard to explain and grasp just how much I have and can adapt. Probably the best two examples are weight and religion. Only somewhere around 5% of people that are morbidly obese, and manage to lose that weight at some point, then manage to keep it off for over a decade.
Very few people ever manage to grow their self awareness to the point of taking action to move away from their religion they were born into. Many people have various levels of engagement, but to actually logically break down and reason upon dogma and tribalism to the point of taking action for moral and ethical reasons is rare. I was never run a foul, offended, or wronged in some emotional way. Quite contrary I was exceptionally engaged, did a good bit if leading, and was well regarded. I know the information better than anyone else I have ever spoken to. When I asked questions, no one had substantive answers.
When I get into a subject, or hobby I do so on a level that is very intense and unlike anyone I have met before. I may find a friend that meshes with that one interest, but I have never met people that cross different spaces. Like right now I am doing CAD every day. I make stuff that is very different than anything uploaded on thingiverse or printables, the two main 3d files sharing websites. I design stuff that is unlike anything I’ve ever seen elsewhere too. I mull over ideas for weeks. It is always on the back of my mind. I taught myself CAD and at an advanced level beyond what most hobbyists learn.
The overall project I’m working on is for a GPU water cooler for my laptop. That in turn is for my custom agent framework in Emacs on Linux where I want to push my hardware to its limits. I got into AI after hitting a wall learning some of the material from the second year courses in computer science on my own. The agentic AI framework is basically a system to augment the LLM outputs with the materials I have in books I bought to follow along with the CS curriculum.
Another major area I dive into from time to time is electronic circuit design. I know KiCAD well and have done some rather in depth reverse engineering projects with hardware too. I can design in analog or digital and have two tooling setups for toner transfer and photolithography etching to make my own circuit boards. Coding complexity is probably my biggest weakness in hardware.
When I lost the weight, I did so as the most hardcore cyclist I have ever met. I rode in all weather. My first bike shop job was 66 miles every day round trip and I rode that for nearly 2 years. I also lead a shop ride out on most Saturday mornings, rode there and home too making that a 100+ mile day. I never had a week under 400 miles back then. I spent a lot of time on a bike. That is a chapter of my life. These are the things that define me. Holding me back from that kind of change is what I’m really talking about.
I had a really bad heart issue in the middle of a Target store one evening around 2009 and decided I wanted to change because I was on the wrong path. Before that, I was the most hardcore car nut you would have ever met. I painted cars professionally, built motors, worked in a machine shop a couple of times, ported heads for nostalgia dragsters, and was into metal fab with mig stick and tig. I was very close to doing my own metal castings, and I got into making my own custom composite parts. I specialized in plastics and repairs on stuff that couldn’t be replaced with reproduction parts too. I was so into carburetors that I was studying WW2 aircraft engines.
I can geek out about nearly anything. I have so many potential things I would love to explore but haven’t yet, like sewing and upholstery, sculpting, ceramics, radio, further into astronomy, radio controlled stuff, robotics and automation, homelab, FPGAs, jewelry making, mosaics, metrology, reverse engineering silicon, glass blowing, chemistry, organic chemistry, writing more science fiction, more fermentation stuff. There are so many cool things to get into and learn. I don’t expect anyone to have a list that matches mine. I expect someone to have a list in the first place. These things are exciting to me, they drive me, or rather the curiosity does. To some people I am tedious and boring, but that is how I feel about the stereotypical normal stuff most people are interested in or doing. I’m more than willing to do something like reshape my life because of stuff like cycling, but I would just as soon try something else with a friend or partner to better their lives in significant ways. I will gladly reshape my interests because there is no ego or narcissism underpinning any of this. I’m not naming stuff because I care how you perceive me. I don’t even think in a space like that naturally. If anything I’m hyper aware of my limitations and desire to learn more. I’m just driven by the curiosity but not like super actively either. It is a slow churn, like an unstoppable bulldozer a snail could outrun. Stand still long enough and I might grow past ya.
So for me, meeting people is simply shifting my interests around. If I was not stuck with my physical limitations, pursuing any interest of mine that has a more balanced participation between the sexes will put me on a course that intersects with at least another long term muse. My problem is that I may learn pottery, but when that moves to sintering and metal casting followed by a deep dive into CNC machining, do they follow or complain about something tedious. What about when I decide to build an EDM machine to take it a step further or I shift gears and get into music for awhile building guitar effects or amps or some analog synthesizer stuff, or writing, or airbrush graphics, or get into criterium racing. I’m not ADHD or OCD at all. I spend months to years on these things exploring them in depth.
So that is why it seems silly to go looking for someone instead of turning inwards first. Of all of my facets, companionship is not a dedicated curiosity or interest. There are many aspects of relationships I find curious and engage with in practice, but this game of hide and seek courtship rituals with perspective strangers is not at all interesting to me.
The part that is hard to understand about who I am now is that I am limited by posture. Sitting up or standing hurts like lifting weights in a gym where you’re going to fail. The moment I’m upright I have around 15 minutes of a clear head, 30 until I degrade significantly, and within 1 hour I’m unable to mentally function at competent levels and highly irritable. Anything over 1 hour will begin impacting my sleep beyond 24 hours. By around 3 hours, it will take me a week to fully recover to a consistent circadian rhythm. It compounds worse for subsequent days of activities or random injuries that occur around once or twice a month. I appear fine other than a little limp in my gate and I can fake that if I try. Sitting in a restaurant with a date, I am just not me. I can do a lot to mask just how much pain I am in but it is miserable, and conversationally I’m not myself. To speak my mind openly, I need to be lying down and without a lot of stress beforehand. So I exist in this homebound prison. I have nothing to offer anyone anyways. And I have had to come to terms with that. Most of me died, only a shell survived. I cannot change that so I make the best of what I have.
About the insane extremes incels jump to:
Based anon
