picking either randomly, and acknowledging “language limits”. (laypeople way to say “grammatical gender does not necessarily coincide with social gender”)
picking both and using them randomly
triggering gender agreement with some additional word, e.g. “la persona no binaria” will always use -a since it agrees with “persona” (person)
Even though I don’t understand Spanish, the christ-e just seems like the greatest hellstar option; it sounds natural and blends in with the language as well as you could hope from a new, non-natural entity.
Spaniard here, you pretty much nailed it. -x makes no sense as it breaks like every rule about the Spanish language so I’ve never heard it outside of Americans trying to be correct. -@ works, but we pronounce @ as [aˈro.βa] so most would just pronounce it like a normal -a instead. -e seems the best to me but I don’t think I’ve ever seen that one before.
Another thing is that most Hispanics don’t think of gender in the same way that Anglos would, as its more ingrained in our language. Of course he have non-binary people here, but its just not as prevalent of an issue. At least that’s my experience in Spain
i’m not a spanish speaker but christ -e just seems so obviously the best choice, it looks normal and seems to fit as well into the language as you can expect a new not 100% organic thing to do.
It sounds well in Portuguese too. Perhaps even more - because unlike in Spanish people tend to shorten and reduce vowels in non-stressed positions, so depending on the dialect and speed you don’t even notice that -e instead of -a or -o.
Yeah it just makes sense. Saying something like amigxs instead of amigos completely butchers the pronunciation. It would be pronounced something like ameeg-ek-eese but also the accentuated syllable would move from the i to the a. At least I think so, having that many consonants together is literally impossible in Spanish lol
-x makes no sense as it breaks like every rule about the Spanish language
But every single change does that?
Over here in Germany conservatives keep yelling about similar efforts. As it stands, the most popular gender inclusive variant for referring to a group of people has become “[masuline form]*innen”
Take the word “student” for instance
Student - singular, male
Studentin - singular, female
Studenten - multiple male students OR multiple male and female students
Studentinnen - multiple female students
Since the generic masculine doesn’t acknowledge non-binary or female people, the following variant has started to spread:
Student*innen - multiple students of ambiguous gender
When talking, you can differentiate it from the term “Studentinnen” by replacing the * with a short break. You’d basically say “Student…innen”.
Neither the *, nor this break is adhering to any established rules. But the main - or only - reason reactionaries oppose it is because they don’t want to acknowledge non-binary people.
Well that’s pretty much how Spanish works. We have estudiante but that normally ends with -e so we’ll use alumno as an example:
El alumno - single masculine
La alumna - single feminine
Los alumnos - multiple masculine or mixed group. As long as there’s at least one guy its masculine
Las alumnas - multiple feminine
So saying something like Les alumnes (seems like French lol) can sound more neutral than Los alumnos despite not being officially correct because los has an implied masculine connotation
Still, it would break grammar rules similar to the -x ending, right? Although from my limited Spanish knowledge the -x ending would require some explanation on how to pronounce it, just like the German *-variant. The -e might be more intuitive though.
But from what I’ve seen on the internet, by far the vast majority of criticism of the -x variant are immediately followed by some right-wing talking point, which is why I’m somewhat cautious about more appropriate criticism.
In German, another variant, though considerably less popular, for referring to people in a gender neutral fashion is by “Englishifying” it and referring to everyone the same by appending a -y to the word stem.
Singular male/female/non-binary student? That’s a Studenty now. A group of students? Studentys.
I hate to say it but this is my favorite variant because it gets rid of gender altogether in a concise way and sounds silly. Still, it too violates a shitton of rules - but what are rules, if not meant to be broken?
Spanish is a consonant vowel language. It’s actually super nice because you can read aloud really fast since you don’t have to finish reading the word before pronouncing it (something totally not possible in English). Ending a word in nx is such a non-natural change that it’s not a grammar rule as much as a forcing of the Spanish tongue to alter its optimized path and pattern to something that is not part of it’s vocal structure. That’s typically why Spanish speakers I know mock Latinx as tone deaf American virtue signalling. Using an e at the end of a word is more compatible because Spanish avoids hard sounds at the end of words generally.
To the rest of the previous commenters point, switching to e doesn’t even solve all of it because the language genderizes all its adjectives. Only an English tongue has the privilege of thinking modifying the noun is enough. And modifying the adjectives can lead to language overlap where adjectives might start to sound like other Spanish words and confuse contextual speaking (which is again, something English speakers take for granted because we have a glut of homonyms due to our very middled language history). It’s akin to proposing an entire system of communication be broken for the sake of something that it was not built to accommodate. From the sound of it, it might be worth a trans lingua franca more than changing fundamental effective communication strategies. Basically creating a Swahili of gender awareness and then working to market it effectively so people use it when they need to regardless of language.
I don’t speak spanish but something about hearing people pronounce latinx as the gender neutral form of latina or latino sounds jarring. With that in mind, how would you pronounce latine? In my head I’d think latin-ay sounds right, but could also go latin-ee, but something about that also feels weird.
I wonder whether linguists and others will gradually adopt calling them noun classes instead of genders.
I hope so. It would also help when explaining the grammar of a few languages to laypeople. Such as the Bantu ones - people treat their noun classes as if they were something completely alien, even when they speak a language with M/F noun classes.
Note however that they work in a really different way, more like noun declensions than like noun classes=gender. For example, you don’t trigger agreement; even if you were to replace an -ar verb with an -er or -ir verb, the rest of the sentence stays the same.
Stuff that I’ve seen from people addressing this:
The -@ and -x things don’t work well when spoken.
Even though I don’t understand Spanish, the christ-e just seems like the greatest hellstar option; it sounds natural and blends in with the language as well as you could hope from a new, non-natural entity.
Spaniard here, you pretty much nailed it. -x makes no sense as it breaks like every rule about the Spanish language so I’ve never heard it outside of Americans trying to be correct. -@ works, but we pronounce @ as [aˈro.βa] so most would just pronounce it like a normal -a instead. -e seems the best to me but I don’t think I’ve ever seen that one before.
Another thing is that most Hispanics don’t think of gender in the same way that Anglos would, as its more ingrained in our language. Of course he have non-binary people here, but its just not as prevalent of an issue. At least that’s my experience in Spain
i’m not a spanish speaker but christ -e just seems so obviously the best choice, it looks normal and seems to fit as well into the language as you can expect a new not 100% organic thing to do.
It sounds well in Portuguese too. Perhaps even more - because unlike in Spanish people tend to shorten and reduce vowels in non-stressed positions, so depending on the dialect and speed you don’t even notice that -e instead of -a or -o.
Yeah it just makes sense. Saying something like amigxs instead of amigos completely butchers the pronunciation. It would be pronounced something like ameeg-ek-eese but also the accentuated syllable would move from the i to the a. At least I think so, having that many consonants together is literally impossible in Spanish lol
meanwhile “amiges” looks broadly fine, could pass for being a weird dialect.
But every single change does that?
Over here in Germany conservatives keep yelling about similar efforts. As it stands, the most popular gender inclusive variant for referring to a group of people has become “[masuline form]*innen”
Take the word “student” for instance
Since the generic masculine doesn’t acknowledge non-binary or female people, the following variant has started to spread:
When talking, you can differentiate it from the term “Studentinnen” by replacing the * with a short break. You’d basically say “Student…innen”.
Neither the *, nor this break is adhering to any established rules. But the main - or only - reason reactionaries oppose it is because they don’t want to acknowledge non-binary people.
Well that’s pretty much how Spanish works. We have estudiante but that normally ends with -e so we’ll use alumno as an example:
El alumno - single masculine
La alumna - single feminine
Los alumnos - multiple masculine or mixed group. As long as there’s at least one guy its masculine
Las alumnas - multiple feminine
So saying something like Les alumnes (seems like French lol) can sound more neutral than Los alumnos despite not being officially correct because los has an implied masculine connotation
Still, it would break grammar rules similar to the -x ending, right? Although from my limited Spanish knowledge the -x ending would require some explanation on how to pronounce it, just like the German *-variant. The -e might be more intuitive though.
But from what I’ve seen on the internet, by far the vast majority of criticism of the -x variant are immediately followed by some right-wing talking point, which is why I’m somewhat cautious about more appropriate criticism.
In German, another variant, though considerably less popular, for referring to people in a gender neutral fashion is by “Englishifying” it and referring to everyone the same by appending a -y to the word stem.
Singular male/female/non-binary student? That’s a Studenty now. A group of students? Studentys.
I hate to say it but this is my favorite variant because it gets rid of gender altogether in a concise way and sounds silly. Still, it too violates a shitton of rules - but what are rules, if not meant to be broken?
Spanish is a consonant vowel language. It’s actually super nice because you can read aloud really fast since you don’t have to finish reading the word before pronouncing it (something totally not possible in English). Ending a word in nx is such a non-natural change that it’s not a grammar rule as much as a forcing of the Spanish tongue to alter its optimized path and pattern to something that is not part of it’s vocal structure. That’s typically why Spanish speakers I know mock Latinx as tone deaf American virtue signalling. Using an e at the end of a word is more compatible because Spanish avoids hard sounds at the end of words generally.
To the rest of the previous commenters point, switching to e doesn’t even solve all of it because the language genderizes all its adjectives. Only an English tongue has the privilege of thinking modifying the noun is enough. And modifying the adjectives can lead to language overlap where adjectives might start to sound like other Spanish words and confuse contextual speaking (which is again, something English speakers take for granted because we have a glut of homonyms due to our very middled language history). It’s akin to proposing an entire system of communication be broken for the sake of something that it was not built to accommodate. From the sound of it, it might be worth a trans lingua franca more than changing fundamental effective communication strategies. Basically creating a Swahili of gender awareness and then working to market it effectively so people use it when they need to regardless of language.
-e is common in LatAm. I’ve never seen the -@ used. X just pisses me off because it only “works” in English, but sounds idiotic as well.
I don’t speak spanish but something about hearing people pronounce latinx as the gender neutral form of latina or latino sounds jarring. With that in mind, how would you pronounce latine? In my head I’d think latin-ay sounds right, but could also go latin-ee, but something about that also feels weird.
Lah-teen-eh
I wonder whether linguists and others will gradually adopt calling them noun classes instead of genders.
I have a harder time believing we’d adopt a new term to supplant “gender” for human social roles, but stranger things have happened.
I hope so. It would also help when explaining the grammar of a few languages to laypeople. Such as the Bantu ones - people treat their noun classes as if they were something completely alien, even when they speak a language with M/F noun classes.
Especially in Spanish where “verb classes” already exist and have distinct, if subtle, rules (-ar, -er and -ir)
Don’t they call it “conjugations” in Spanish too?
Note however that they work in a really different way, more like noun declensions than like noun classes=gender. For example, you don’t trigger agreement; even if you were to replace an -ar verb with an -er or -ir verb, the rest of the sentence stays the same.