Both characters should be able to use a public restroom without scrutiny at any rate.
Well, I do have some questions about the “Candy for luring kids” bag.
Some people look closer to the caricature on the left (nix the cartoonishly creepy vibes) than they do to the one on the right and there’s nothing wrong with that. I think the intention behind this comic is well-meaning but IMHO this is a harmful way of characterizing trans people.
Agreed, as if to imply that it’s somehow bad to look more masculine than most women, or even be straight up visibly AMAB. There’s nothing wrong with that whatsoever.
i fw the girl on the left
In most cases you won’t even know they are trans until the subject rises due to other factors. At least in NL (and in my circles) being trans isn’t something they tell others, because well it’s not important. Sometimes you can notice it when somebody is trans and other times it’s not.
As a trans person just one for one showing the exact depiction a conservative would use for us in your meme is not helpful and deeply offensive.
It’s not yours but you’re still accountable for promoting it by posting it here. It’s ultimately up to you whether or not you personally find it offensive. However, I do think being open to community feedback and understanding why other people might be offended by it is important.
Even if you look like the image on the left, your gender is still valid. You shouldn’t have to be “passing” to be allowed to be who you are.
and let’s be clear, anti-trans activists hate passing trans people as much as non-passing trans people - they want to erase all of us
I imagine they hate those who pass FAR more. They need everyone, especially those they hate, to fill obvious roles. A passing trans person is a violation of their ‘natural order’.
Also makes their private regions all confused.
Honestly I think this is part of the motivation for the bathroom bills, if they can force people to out themselves it’s more likely those people will avoid a public existence.
EDIT: also a major motivation for the anti-trans strategy being so focused on gender markers on IDs, since that is another way people are outed. Someone where I lived was outed when she went to the gym because her license didn’t have an updated marker, and it resulted in a huge scandal after the gym harassed her and then kicked her out of the gym and refused to refund her membership.
Or use the ‘forbidden’ facilities and be hate crimed into hiding or worse.
I fucking hate this timeline.
It’s bad, but reading Stone Butch Blues or reading about trans history will make you thankful for the contemporary situation anyway; cross-dressing laws have been repealed in most states, trans people aren’t inherently criminal the way they were in the 1970s. The current U.S. administration wishes to bring us back to a time like that, but the fact that they’re fighting to even stigmatize and criminalize trans people is a massive win for the gay rights / liberation movement compared to where things were at very recently.
It’s all true and undoing decades of slow, grudging and downright painful progress is going to be a very large task for these monsters.
But, damned if they’re not going to do their worst.
If you wish to feel any comfort, it is helpful to remember that the GOP has a historically narrow majority, Trump didn’t even win a majority of the popular vote, and this was the first time the GOP has won the popular vote in 20 years … this is an unpopular party that only maintains power through slim majorities.
All incumbent parties lost elections this past year, so I think it’s just populist anger about inflation and economic concerns rather than anything like an ideological or cultural sea-change towards reaction.
Anti-trans legislation remains unpopular, and Trump has the lowest approval ratings entering office of any president on record.
The fact that one political party even advocates for LGBT+ rights is a massive improvement even in my lifetime (most of my life both parties have been against LGBT+ rights), and the fact that Dems have largely succeeded in not regressing on this is another major victory for us.
So sure, they’ll try to do their worst, but I am not sure it will be enough.
I am glad that others share this viewpoint.
I don’t care if they look like the person on the left. A person is a person, actions that affect others without their consent is inexcusable. That it includes a lack of acknowledgment because you don’t “pass”. All I’m saying is, please don’t depict people who don’t pass, as criminals. They suffer enough, as is. especially now.
Yeah i was gonna say, this is a weird way to be supportive of trans people. I have absolutely seen trans people looking like the left pic and this makes it seem like those would be untrustworthy or scary somehow.
It might’ve been a deeper comic if they used the person on the right for both panes .
Yeah I am someone who looks like the person on the left, I do hope to feminize a little bit more on E but overall as a tomboy I do like looking a bit more masculine. I also don’t really see why looking like that would make someone untrustworthy or scary.
I mean we can take exception with someone holding a bag that is tagged, “candy for luring kids.” I can’t think of a time when that could be a good thing.
Is it telling about my childhood trauma that I immediately imagined a priest holding that bag?
I also think the point here is considerably more nuanced than non-passing=bad.
I read it as a critique of how trans people are stereotyped as non-passing. The fact of the matter is, a lot of us do pass and go about our daily lives, and the average cis person doesn’t even realize. We assimilate more often than most would admit.
So while I don’t think there should be moral value to passing per se, I also think it’s pretty fucked up the way we’re all sort of stereotyped as being the most visible until proven otherwise…
I don’t know how to say this without sounding insane, but I’ve never met a trans person who didn’t pass.
This isn’t because they’re all beautiful. It’s because there’s a wide variety of women in the world and I’ve said this before, and I’ll say it again- I think there’s a lot of internalized misogyny in trans spaces, where there’s this idea that you have to conform to some idea of ‘beauty’ in order to be femme.
A lot of cis women are invisible. That’s not because they ‘pass’. It’s because they aren’t remarkable. One of my oldest friends, who passed away recently, was a woman with polycystic ovarian syndrome. It’s a condition that tends to make women grow more hair than “average,” it tends to be coupled with insulin resistance and metabolic syndrome, which makes for a rounder body in some ways, and it’s an extremely common condition. I’m not even 40 and I’ve had 5 different friends who all had it! It’s super common! And there’s this thing that cis women deal with which is, if you aren’t pretty, you’re straight up ignored.
So what I see, and I hope that this comes across as gender affirming, is that trans women are women, and they don’t realize that they pass a lot easier than they think they do. Because you don’t have to be like the woman on the right in the comic to be a woman. You can look like the person on the left, and still look like a woman, because there’s lots of ciswomen who look imperfect in a lot of ways. It’s just that trans women are harder on themselves than they should be, because they’ve been taught “women look like X and sound like Y and do like Z.” And the truth is, we’re half the damn population! We look like and sound like and do like everything! We just aren’t on TV, on the radio, in the news.
I’ve said in the past that I have the bodytype of Danny Devito and it’s true. And I definitely am not trying to downplay the extreme difficulty that trans women face, and there are some very obviously masculine things that concern them (such as facial hair, omg, the struggle) but my point is, it’s easier to pass than most people think. Give me 12 hours with Danny Devito (and a talented cosmetologist to do something with his hair) and we can make him pass. He’d probably let us. He probably wouldn’t even make a joke out of it, because he’s a class act.
It’s a label. They’re labeling people based on the way they look.
I see those stereotypes as convenient propaganda to easily turn the situation into an “us-vs-them” issue and radicalise people with less skin in the game. Whether transphobes actually believe in them is kinda beside the point. The real drive for transphobia imo is purely ideological where gender roles are governed by nature, families are nuclear, and patriarchy is normal and good (but dont call it that)!
The most effective way to combat this is to show examples of trans folks existing in society as healthy, productive people. Having families, not conforming to the stereotypes or giving ammunition to the zealots. I’m not saying everyone should be conforming! Just that we need to have counterexamples to show those who hold trans people up as the epitome of western decline.
my brother in law is an awesome example. Dude is literally just ‘guy™️’
like he’ll yap to you about an alternator, watch tv, eat string cheese, and take a nap. But he’s also super sweet and will help literally anyone for any reason. I love him so much ❤️That’s so wholesome! Thanks for sharing 🤗
I’m real tempted, as a cis woman, to dress like a man and see if I can pick fights with people. Because I want people to be able to stand up say, “Well, yes, I’m trans,” and then fistfight whoever jump them, but that sounds exhausting, and they shouldn’t have to do it. At the same time, I’m worried these idiots would find out I was fighting them on purpose and then would try handwaving me as “not really trans so it doesn’t count.”
I already have the body-type of Danny Devito. May as well make use of it.
Personally I’ll probably just let people pick fights with me, not pick fights with them. It would be the dumbest thing they could do since I’m tough and would kick their asses. And they would deserve it for picking a fight with someone who’s ripped.
Now let’s see one about religious leaders being role models (left) vs sex offenders (right).
FWIW, I didn’t think all religious leaders are sex offenders, but the percentage that have been caught and charged with sexual assault compared to trans people caught and charged is near infinitely higher.
There is one group of men that dress up in flamboyant clothing where of that group a large percentage assaults children. They don’t wear women’s clothing but they wear vestments and a miter.
I think deep down they’re afraid of “actual trans people” as displayed in this image because they’re terrified of “accidentally” hitting on them and finding out they’re trans. :/
I mean isn’t that valid?
If I was hooking up with a girl and she didn’t disclose that and she took off her clothes I would feel so violated
I doubt this ever really happens though
I’m not sure that in a society that isn’t homophobic and transphobic that this would be as much of a problem as we think. Would it be acceptable to be upset if the girl you were hooking up with took off her clothes and you find out she had some other kind of situation she didn’t disclose? I can imagine many different situations, like:
- breasts are smaller than expected because the bra was padded
- one or more breasts were removed due to cancer
- ambiguous or otherwise “not normal” genitalia for whatever reason (e.g. there are women with multiple vaginas, for example, or women with very large clits, etc.)
- scars, burns, or other marks on the body that you didn’t expect
You can think of more examples I’m sure. If you really think a trans woman is a woman, I don’t think their genitals being in one configuration is that different than these sorts of examples - it’s just another unexpected thing.
I think part of what makes it feel like a violation, esp. to so many cis straight men, is that the attitudes about genitals are so essentialized, it’s often hard for a cis straight man (and people in general) to think the penis isn’t “male” at least in some sense, and so on a trans woman a penis requires special consent and disclosure that we might not demand of other conditions.
Should someone feel violated if anything else is not what they expected on a woman’s body? Why is being trans special or different?
All that said, we do live in a society - so disclosing seems like a good idea for so many reasons. My questions aren’t meant to lead people to take risks, but to create clarity about why these practices of disclosure are necessary in the first place.
I wouldn’t feel violated if the person I was hitting on turned out to have a dick, but I wouldn’t have interest in having sex with that person because well I don’t fancy having sex with a person who has a dick.
Am I wrong in thinking this?
Personally I don’t think it’s a good approach to ask whether you personally are wrong or right for the way you feel, from my perspective it’s a bit of a weird way to approach moral responsibility.
It’s probably better to acknowledge the causes for why you or anyone else would discriminate that way, but to be honest this is not the only kind of preference that we could examine or think has problematic roots.
Are people wrong for not wanting to have sex with someone considered conventionally unattractive? Or what about my example with the amputated breast - would it be wrong to not want to have sex with that person upon realizing they are an amputee?
Even if we acknowledge there is some unfairness or problem with the way we feel, it doesn’t make us not feel those things. Overriding our feelings and carrying through with something we are uncomfortable with seems wrong to me, for example. Especially in the context of sex where consent is so important.
So, I’m not inclined to condemn the individual for their feelings even if they are problematic in some way - we all have problematic feelings, but I am inclined to think we should examine where feelings come from and how society reinforces some feelings and not others, if that makes sense.
The responsibility does not fall 100% on the individual for the way they feel, since individuals do not have perfect control over the way they feel or how their feelings form - they don’t exist in a vacuum where every decision they make is wholly their responsibility.
Instead if we think that discriminating on some basis or another is wrong, we live in a situation where we have to pragmatically acknowledge that people feel this way, and that those feelings aren’t going to go away even if someone acknowledges the feelings are problematic. I also don’t think it’s useful to shout down someone with those feelings even if the feeling comes from a bad place or is wrong in some way.
That said, it’s obvious that some people are more overt in their discriminatory attitudes than others - someone like Andrew Tate who is proudly misogynistic is someone worth individually denouncing since they embrace their discriminatory feelings and promote them in society. But again this is more about the influence on the social norms that are adopted by people - the focus should be on improving social attitudes, rather than policing every individual who is a product of those social attitudes.
Well in my specific case I am looking for someone to have kids with which is a lot different than the other stuff you mentioned which are purely cosmetic. I know you can adopt etc but I’m a narcissist who wants to make miniature rabbers.
would you feel “violated” if the woman you date looks totally normal, but is actually infertile?
yeah, was going to ask the same thing - I think infertility is a great example of an “unexpected” thing that I wouldn’t think should count as a violation, at least not for hooking up. It’s another matter if a person really wants to reproduce and the partner lies or doesn’t disclose they are infertile and leads them along somehow, but that’s not a hookup situation. A hookup is not a suitable context for reproducing, let’s be honest.
That’s one thing, but I was referring to steps before that part. I think these people are horrified of the prospect of being attracted to someone and then finding out they were once biologically male so they simply push to make that prospect impossible. Everyone else suffers so they don’t have to suffer any introspection. :/
I know you’re probably not intending this but biological <gender> is so damn transphobic. I’m biologically a trans women. I was born this way.
Sorry! I really don’t know how to properly express these things correctly. This is the first time I’m seeing it discussed in that way though.
Ah sorry no It’s okay I can tell you have good intentions. Gender is a hard thing to talk about because of how multifaceted it is.
Like what I think you meant is finding out that person they are attracted to is a women with a penis. They then experiance internalized transphobia causing them to think they have been deceived into being attracted to a man or ‘biological male’ as penises are strongly associated with men by our societies constructed gender binary. When in reality many women have penises. Just as many men have vulva.
being attracted to someone and then finding out they were once biologically male
Also valid I think. I’m looking for a woman who wants to have kids with me so it would really suck for both parties and I would prefer to avoid that awkward situation altogether. That could end up being straight up traumatic for either person
A lot of people can’t have or don’t want to have children for various reasons or medical issues.
Seems like this problem can just be solved by being upfront that you want to have children? No point in singling out any specific reason when the real issue is that you need someone to have children with. Most people would appreciate you expressing your needs upfront.
I mean that sounds good on paper but saying you want to have children in the initial stage of a relationship is probably a red flag lol
So is feeling violated at someone not telling you beforehand they’re trans. I’d feel a lot worse with you doing that than asking if I’m fertile.
I’ve never seen tik tok style censorship in a comic itself
LoL
Evil Deceivers & Make Believers (warning, link is to PDF; additionally: archived link, JSTOR link).
thanks for the warning, don’t know what I would’ve done if I clicked on the link and didn’t know it was a PDF file!
lol, I don’t know why people care about that, but I think some people do. It’s probably because PDFs initiate a download and some people have limited mobile data? Either way, I’ve been on the internet long enough to find that some people prefer a warning as etiquette. 🤷♀️
