This is so myopic. Most of the world can send money via email. None of those things in the bottom will go away, save for a few tangibles. The gestures and transactions can still absolutely happen.
To be fair, apart from the privacy aspects, they’ve chosen some of the worst arguments against a full cashless society. Seriously, piggy banks and birthday cards?
I think it’s easier for us, as adults, to dismiss those things, but they bring kids joy and an opportunity to learn about the value of money and saving.
And giftcards will still exist, still traceable though.
unfortunately. god they suck so much. they’re like money, but worse in every way.
God how we would suffer without piggy banks or garage sales.
I though this whole post was sarcasm until I saw people’s comments taking it seriously. Thanks for bringing sanity to this thread.
Also have any of you heard of instant transfers or crypto currency? So cringe.
Normal life. As much as people want to deny it, it’s actually really important.
cash is to currency what monero is to crypto, couldn’t live without either
I’ve always wondered how hard it is to mine monero. Any experience with mining it? Sounds like an interesting side project.
if you’re interested in mining find a mining pool, solo mining’s just not worth it, unless you have 6+ gpus
here an official guide: https://www.getmonero.org/get-started/mining/
here a mining calculator: https://www.coinwarz.com/mining/monero/calculator
Every single point raised in this post is already solved with current technology.
I’ve been cashless for about a decade now. I have no problem with donating money, giving or recieving monay as a gift. I never give the homeless money, but I often buy them food. Why couldn’t you buy or sell something to people? You can easily transfer someone a small sum of money using their phone number. Same with garage sales. When was the last time You saw a Piggy Bank?
Many unhoused people do not have a phone.
They also don’t have homes, what’s your point?
Yeah! Fuck them! If they don’t have homes or cards they don’t deserve food, get good scrubs!
FFS. Please read the previous comment. I don’t give money to the poor. I give money to charitable organisations. They have bank accounts. Also every single time in my life when I was asked by a homeless person for food, I bought them food. Shops have card readers. I don’t need cash to help people.
Oh yes charitable organizations which in the US definitely aren’t usually just a corporate tax write-off with so much money wasted on overhead that could have directly went to helping people.
I’m not in the US.
Fair lol.
This was a direct response to someone saying “You can easily transfer someone a small sum of money using their phone number.”
You can’t easily transfer someone money using their phone if they don’t have one. (Though I learned after that many do have phones, many aren’t smart phones and they do have high turnover of phone and phone number. So I think cash is still superior overall)
Why would I need to transfer money to the homeless?
Did you not read the previous comments? The context includes “I never give the homeless money, but I often buy them food.” and also the idea of being a cashless society.
Some people give the homeless money because the homeless person doesn’t have any, and if you give them a couple dollars they can get something to eat. I don’t have to explain charity, I hope.
Again. Why would I give a homeless person money for food, if I can just give them food?
Perhaps you have money on you, but no food. You may be in a place where food cannot be readily purchased (eg: a subway train).
It’s been at least a decade since I’ve seen a homeless person without a phone. Free government phones are easy to get. They all have them.
Which country is giving away free phones? I have never heard that before.
Wait a few weeks and Google will be giving away free phones, just so they can track everybody. Wait a couple more weeks, and having a tracked phone will be mandatory.
I apologize for not clarifying that I’m in the US
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6516785/
However, little is known about homeless adults’ technology access and use. Utilizing data from a study of 421 homeless adults moving into PSH, this paper presents descriptive technology findings, and compares results to age-matched general population data. The vast majority (94%) currently owned a cell phone, although there was considerable past 3-month turnover in phones (56%) and phone numbers (55%). More than half currently owned a smartphone, and 86% of those used Android operating systems. Most (85%) used a cell phone daily, 76% used text messaging, and 51% accessed the Internet on their cell phone. One-third reported no past 3-month Internet use
Based on that study, many have a cell phone, but not all of them have smart phones. There’s also a lot of turnover.
I’ve never had a homeless person ask me to venmo them some money.
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Well I think banks have a few laws that prevent those things. But remembering the Pornhub incident where MasterCard and Visa stopped their partnership to strongarm them. In that case the motivation was child safety and not greed. But it was a display of power.
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They could make the digital money invalid at stores they don’t like, they could make it invalid for buying something they don’t want you to buy
Credit card companies already do this.
If you deposit your money at a bank, or PayPal, or some online digital bank transfer service,** you do not have your money anymore.** They have your money.
Now you have some kind of contract that says they’ll give you your money on demand. But sometimes they won’t give it to you when you want it. If any judge or cop wants to see every person or business I’ve ever transacted with the bank will happily give it over.
On the other hand, cash is cash. If I possess it, then I have it. And nobody gets to know how much, or how suspicious, or with whom I’m transacting.
On the other other hand, in the U.S. if you are pulled over by the police with cash, they can choose to seize that cash just because carrying cash looks suspicious. They don’t need to charge you with a crime. If the cash was in a bank, they’d need to go through a lot more process to seize it – the cops typically can’t just walk into the bank and demand it.
Yea, but that’s a different problem.
If you deposit money at a bank, it is covered by federal deposit protection insurance (up to some limit that varies by country but generally in the range of $100k-$250k), so you are guaranteed to be able to get it back no matter what. Even if the bank fails. Banks are subject to extremely strict regulation to protect consumers and make sure you have access to your funds
PayPal is not a bank, it’s an EMI (e-money institution), but those are heavily regulated to protect consumers. Your funds are not covered by deposit protection insurance, but as an EMI they have to keep your money in a safeguarding account at a real bank and they can’t use it themselves, so in case PayPal fails you will still get your money back. Revolut in the UK is another example of a non-bank EMI
If you deposit money at a bank, it is covered by federal deposit protection insurance (up to some limit that varies by country but generally in the range of $100k-$250k), so you are guaranteed to be able to get it back no matter what.
Time matters. Those insurance claims take months to process and they only cover bankruptcy (which is the least likely reason a bank denies you access to funds).
The copy of my ID card that the bank had on file expired. I renewed it on time but did not think to update the bank with a new copy. The bank’s way of communicating to me that their records of my card were out of date was to freeze my account. Boom, just like that, I have no money all of the sudden. I don’t recall the time of day it happened, but if it had happened on a Friday night I would not have access to my money until I appear in person at the bank Monday morning — assuming it’s even possible to get off work. At that time, I kept an empty fridge… only eating on the go. Had I not had cash on hand, getting food could have been a struggle.
Even if the bank fails. Banks are subject to extremely strict regulation to protect consumers and make sure you have access to your funds
LOL! Those so-called strictly enforced banking regs are not for us. Banks are scared shitless of AML/KYC shit hitting the fan. Banks laugh at the consumer protection variety of regs with reckless disregard. It’s a joke. I’ve reported banks in breach of consumer rights. The bank’s regulators do fuck all. One reculator responded to me and said “why don’t you switch banks”. I shit you not. That came from a regulator who’s job it was to enforce a law that the bank was breaking.
PayPal is not a bank, it’s an EMI (e-money institution), but those are heavily regulated to protect consumers. Your funds are not covered by deposit protection insurance, but as an EMI they have to keep your money in a safeguarding account at a real bank and they can’t use it themselves, so in case PayPal fails you will still get your money back.
No, that’s not how it is. PayPal has a reputation for copious extremely out of whack “anti-fraud” false positives. I was burnt by it. Paypal blocked my acct and kept my money. There are many similar complaints.
https://git.disroot.org/cyberMonk/liberethos_paradigm/src/branch/master/rap_sheets/paypal.md
Debit is cash but
We can tap for yard sales and homeless people
People include gift cards in birthday cards or etransfer
You could do that for your child’s teeth
Oh no, what will i do without a ceramic pig
Last 4 points I’m sure you can figure out also aren’t true
And if you’re worried about being tracked then surely you don’t use a phone/go online/appear in public
Can’t wait for crypto to be fully adopted
So that everyone can see everything, instead of just the banks.
There are advantages. All bribes are visible to everyone.
Hmm why are comments that mention Monero getting down votes?
Because Lemmy has an irritional hate towards crypto. Calling it “dead” and a “scam” while the price is breaking records and being officially adopted by several world governments.
and being officially adopted by several world governments.
Monero? Or which one?
BTC. The price already passed ATH ($70k) and has had ETF approval in the US several months ago, Canada; China coming soon. ETH is up for consideration next. And then there’s the fact that several small countries like El Salvador that have already accepted it as their official currency.
But you already knew all of this, so why am I even wasting energy on trolls like you? You people fucking suck. Quit talking shit just cause you’re even worse investors than me.
Quit talking shit just cause you’re even worse investors than me.
What? I asked one question.
Couldn’t tell you. I honestly don’t know enough about Monero to have an educated opinion.
However, I do know Bitcoin and (a bit less so) Etherium from a technical standpoint, and I know those are very popular options, so unless Monero is specified I think it’s safe to assume “cryptocurrency” = “Bitcoin” for the most part when talking about the general trends of adoption.
That said, from what I hear, Monero is private, and I have no reason to doubt that. For the record, I’m also not downvoting anyone talking about Monero. I think the Lemmy community in general is just relatively anti-cryptocurrency (and anti most things, honestly).
At least Lemmy community is not anti-GMO, right? Right?
Monero my friend, monero
You’re right, most cryptos as they exist are open ledgers for anyone to examine. However there are digital currencies where the ledger is not open, and our private by default, such as monero. Truly fungible digital cash.
I’ve given my thoughts on Monero elsewhere in these replies.
The phrase “truly fungible” is an interesting one. I was going to ask you to elaborate, but if one “coin” is entirely indistinguishable from any other (including by transaction history, or lack thereof) I assume that’s what you mean by “truly fungible”. Never heard that before, but it honestly makes sense.
Yes, correct
Never heard of Monero?
Heard of it, but I’ll admit I haven’t studied it like I have Bitcoin/Etherium.
I think it’s fair to label Monero as relatively “fringe” when talking mass adoption, though. It might well be the solution to those problems, but sadly that doesn’t account for much if the bulk of society prefers to use a public ledger like Bitcoin.
Dude, crypto is pretty much dead.
BTC is breaking price records as several world governments start to officially adopt it as an ETF, and this guy says “crypto is pretty much dead”.
My fucking sides. Get real, my dude. Crypto has never been more alive, and this is just the beginning. Check the price if you don’t believe me.
Fucking LOL
It’s used to launder money. The value is artificially blown. But it will never be used for everyday transactions.
Well that’s a completely different argument.
I’m not buying BTC for everyday transactions; I’m buying so that I have a chance at not being a wage slave for the rest of my life.
(And FWIW there are several debit cards available that will let you buy anything with crypto at any place that accepts Visa. Like the Coinbase Card, for example. Or the CL Card.)
Buying crypto to not be a wage slave? You’re killing me. Buy lottery tickets, chances are the same. Hell, just throw money into a trash bin, chances are also the same. You are living in capitalism. If You weren’t born rich, you will die poor.
We’re all living in capitalism. I hate the system just as much as you do, but until a better system comes along, it’s either play by the rules, or die homeless. I chose the former.
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The author has never seen a check.
The author has never seen a cash app in use
Cash app that always takes screenshots of your screen, refuses to work on privacy-oriented Android distros, request access to raw fingerprint and lot of other sussy things.
Don’t know what apps you guys have in the states, but that’d be illegal in the EU. More so if it’s one of the countries with govt-backed cash apps.
Yes, I’ll gladly deposit this check into the bank for homeless people. Right after I give half of it to my friend whose partner harasses them and controls their accounts
the bank for homeless people
Which is a real thing, in this hypothetical.
Right after I give half of it to my friend whose partner harasses them and controls their accounts
The accounts they know about.
Even if you still scoff at these: that’s two out of nine. The rest are pretending people can’t give money to other people… for some reason. Three of them are just rephrasing “no garage sales.” Yeah, you can’t sell your couch for a bit of cash if there’s no cash, but you can still sell your couch, for money.
Bad arguments for good conclusions are still bad arguments.
Sweden is a mostly cashless society. Let me try to respond to those points
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In case of domestic violence, you go to the police.
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You can still give individual people money with things like Swish. Yes, even “homeless” people have swish and they use it. Kids of all ages can have swish.
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It costs 0(for individuals) or 10-30 cents(for companies) to transact on swish and minimum transaction is basically 10cents(1sek).
There are privacy issues and it is kinda controlled by banks. Maybe eventually things like digital euro can improve on that in the future. You can have an anonymous digital payment system with near 0 fees, it is just that the governments arent incentivized to do it. Thats where cryptocurrency could fit, if it wasnt a pump and dump, to the moon hellhole.
In case of domestic violence, you go to the police.
What a bizarre disconnect from reality. You have waaay too much confidence in police power (and assumptions about actionable evidence), capability, and motivation, and no idea about battered women living in fear of the next attack, which a restraining order does not necessarily stop, if you can get one, especially if the next attack is a bullet. A cop who checks on a battery victim will be told “that big bruise on my cheek is from falling down the stairs”.
Domestic violence victims need options. You’re advocating for taking options away. That’s fucked up.
Speaking from going through it myself; in the USA, Police often don’t help you if you’re dealing with domestic violence/rape in a marriage. My ex’s military commander refused to help me too…
so don’t get married. It’s your fault for perpetuating bronze age bullshit.
In the modern era a marriage isn’t really what it was in the past. You can get divorced if things don’t work out and there’s no “we must wait until marriage to have sex and then we must have children” rule for most people.
So marriage nowadays is really just either a celebration of love, or a practical move for tax or other reasons.
Domestic abusers however, ruin all that. But domestic abusers can ruin your shit even without de jure shared control of finances because they can still coerce you into giving bank auth details.
Yeah in a lot of western countries we now get the ick about all the women-as-chattel-property connotations it’s always had. Watch people scramble to re-invent the meaning of the father of the bride giving her away.
As far as I can tell, marriage is the ugliest and worst chapter of contract law, because that’s basically what a marriage is, it’s a contract. One that people tend to sign without reading or even realizing who all the named parties are. And the standard terms most people agree to aren’t all that great. “You can get divorced” yeah that process isn’t a garden trowel to the spleen, is it fellas?
If it didn’t already exist, and someone were to try to invent the modern concept of marriage from the ground up, we would drive them out to the middle of nowhere and leave them for dead.
Then your country hasn’t modernized its laws. In mine the law says that both partners have equal rights and responsibilities to each other.
My country is in the process of regressing its laws, in fact. I think they’re going to outlaw literacy next year.
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In case of domestic violence, you go to the police.
This was such an oddly specific “worry” that it kind of plays the hand of the target demographic as well as the intention of the snippet. Along with the weird bits about birthday cards and ice cream, it just screams propaganda for midwest Christian-leaning grandmothers and housewives.
Right-wing, conservative Christian housewives who hand-wring about everything ALL put away stashes of money to hide from their 1-dimensional husbands who are usually somewhere on the abusive spectrum. I lived much of my life out in the outskirts of cities where the rednecks nest and breed, there are some very predictable stereotypes out there. One of the most common talking points on the far-right Christian slice of America is the perpetual warning that the Anti-Christ is going to take control of all the money and bring the entire planet under his control, and he will enact a one-world currency, take away everyone’s cash and guns and then everyone will have to get some chip in their wrist and that will be the Mark of the Beast, blah blah blah, fear-mongering and superstition and mindless worry.
Nobody will ever take away physical money entirely because the moment you do, people will invent one. So if you don’t want unregulated Nuka Cola bottlecaps being traded for goods and services in your country, you need to maintain an official currency.
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Let me try to respond back:
- Depending on your situation, your identity, your society, you cannot always rely on the police helping you. There are lots of documented cases of discrimination (e.g. racism) at police institutions in all kinds of regions across the globe. The companies probably don’t want to delete the data any time soon, so there is a chance that this data persists for decades. What if your country chances and starts discriminating or harassing whatever group you belong to? Can you guarantee that your government/society won’t flip the switch on any group of society within their lifetime? Can you guarantee that nobody ever wants to visit a country which their group will be discriminated or persecuted?
- If the homeless person does not own a smartphone, how do they receive money on their Swish account, yet create a swish account? How does a person without documents create a swish account?
- In your case, Swish seems to be a digital gatekeeper. What prevents them from going rogue, increasing prices or discriminating people? I recommended reading Jaron Lanier’s Gadget for understanding the power of digital monopolies.
If the first point does not convince you, here are 2 examples:
- gay dating apps: It repeatedly happened that information from gay dating apps were leaked, sold or extorted to bad governments. Those governments discriminated or persecuted, in some cases killed people just for being homosexual. Chances are high that a gay person has some digital traces to that, e.g. in Swish. Cashless puts them even more at risk in countries like Egypt. https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/apr/03/jailed-for-using-grindr-homosexuality-in-egypt
- In the 1930s, a lot of Jews in Europe were identified through state documents which (unnecessarily) mentioned their name. In some locations, brave people protected them by destroying, hiding or faking state documents.
In other words: If your society changes, any data that exists may be turned against you, even costing your life and the lives of your closest people. Avoiding to have this data saves lives and protects minorities.
If your society changes
This is why I know that I’ll end up on a list if things go as poorly as I expect in the USA during my lifetime.
Swish is partly owned by the Central Bank of Sweden(which is 100% state owned) so it is basically state owned. But as with the digital euro, the private banks play a big part and atm are needed in order to facilitate the digital transactions. This could change in the future.
Your points are societal points and not currency related points. You are right, there are significant issues with swish, you basically need to be a swedish citizen(have a “personal number”). A lot of things in Sweden are gatekeeped by needing a “personal number”. This is an obstacle even for other EU(Schengen) europeans.
Societies are built with the majority in mind. There are holes that need to be fixed. But the existence of holes does not mean that they cant be fixed.
As far as privacy is concerned, you are right, this is a big attack on privacy. But it doesnt have to be, it is just that the governments want it to be. Not because of some megalomaniacal genocidal plan but for tax and criminal issues. Could it be used for more nefarious plans in the future? Sure. You can always use a cryptocurrency like monero though.
What all can you purchase with monero? I don’t see a lot of shops around me accepting any crypto whatsoever.
What all can you purchase with monero?
Drugs and guns.
If our societies would be perfect (now and any time in the future), we would not need this discussion, maybe not even privacy at all. Though a lot of things are very good in our societies, I guess we will not live to see them becoming perfect, so I rather retain some caution, and privacy.
I think the only one that doesn’t really hold up is 1. There’s a lot of coercive control tied up with domestic violence that would make it hard for a victim to call the police for help.
Having said that, in the UK you can open a bank account with a new company in a matter of minutes then transfer money to it and be out of the situation before any paperwork turns up showing what you did.
Many of our banks have specific provisions in place to help victims of domestic violence. Including one that’ll set you up with a safe account and an emergency fund that doesn’t need to be repaid. https://www.which.co.uk/news/article/tsb-launches-emergency-flee-fund-for-domestic-abuse-victims-how-are-other-banks-helping-arSND8h82lGJ
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don’t worry, the politicians will never block themselves from receiving suitcases full of money
They don’t receive suitcases of money. Their wives law firms get steady business from a network of donors. Their kids get past the fancy school acceptance filters despite being block heads. They’re invited to speak at an overseas conference where they do one event and then 30 days of vacation. Their fake biographies of overcoming hardship get sold out and given out for free by their political party. They can trade stock with insider knowledge.
There famously were some cases in Germany, but yeah, they also did more stealth things, like book contracts for example.
https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/12/politics/menendez-gold-cash-what-matters/index.html
just saying - they actually, really do receive suitcases of money.
All a cashless society means to me is a booming black market
That’s a lot of money laundering
Thats a lot of bartering
USSA.
