Our boss was freaking out over people sometimes doing some private calls during work hours and at a certain point absolutely forbade it. So yeah, people would just end the call at 17:00 sharp and switch off the work phone. It took one week before that rule was rescinded.
And that’s ridiculous on general because you know who also does regular work hours? Everyone else!
That means if you need a call with your doctor, bank, whatever, it’s likely gonna be during the workday
This reminds me of a work-to-rule or a “White Strike.” It turns out that every company, even those that supposedly operate off of “unskilled” labor, utterly rely on employees making a ton of judgment calls and often working outside their job description. When employees start working to the letter of their job description, the whole operation quickly grinds to a halt.
“Other duties as assigned” is a bitch.
That’s what gets struck in a white strike.
If it’s literally in your job description, as it has been in my last several positions, does it qualify?
If everyone does it then it works.
Sure. It means they can ask you to do other things that aren’t explicitly written in the original job description. But every time they tell you to do something beyond it, you just start doing THAT exactly to the letter of the request.
You make them assign the task to you, don’t just do it because it’s necessary. Each task that is not part of your actual assigned job needs to be assigned to you. Every time. If they want you to do it every time it’s needed, ask for them to update your job description to reflect it.
It’s called a white strike because you are burying them in paperwork, but not walking off the job.
My listed job duties are infinitely vague and I’m responsible for everything.
Bonus, you can ask for clarification on everything.
A white strike, like all strikes works because of collective action, not because of some tricky technically lol.
Okay, you’ve assigned me a duty. Give me exact, and I mean exact, instructions about how to complete it.
Now repeat for the thousands of tiny tasks everyone just does on their own.
This is when “could you please send that request on writing via e-mail” becomes really useful.
Here we call it “standard operation” and it’s also a kind of “white strike”
Same in Brazil. It’s a most effective form of strike - you still get paid, the consultant still hemorrhages money. Another common one among public transit is when bus drivers still go around their route but don’t collect payment.
Teamwork makes the dream work.
God, I hate how often my CEO says this
Sounds like he’s a fan of unions. Take him up on it.
If you sort by new, the last time it was posted in [email protected] was only 2 posts ago.
Dead internet theory?
I wouldn’t say that most things are bots. People often just repost things without looking at the place they post, or what the rules of that place are.
I guess it’s to be expected when most content on platforms these days is not entirely new and original but stripped from other places. It is interesting to see reposts on here, though, given that Lemmy’s population is so small. Then again, there’s likely lots of overlap in people’s interests here, considering that Lemmy isn’t as mass-centered as other contemporary social media platforms.
Doing home health was kinda instructive for me in this regard.
The only time you go to the office is to turn stuff in, do inservices/continuing education, or similar. But originally I would answer calls at weird hours because a patient would need coverage, otherwise they wouldn’t be calling.
And then the management spent way too much money buying into some Disney corporate policy thing (literally, they paid money to Disney for the program) that changed a ton of rules in bullshit ways that made no sense for home health.
So, the next time they called, I didn’t answer. Or the time after that, or the time after that. And, when you’re one of three men working for a company that’s partially reliant physical strength to be able to do the work needed for some patients, this alarmed my supervisor. She requested a meeting, and I went in. Mandatory meetings were paid though!
At the meeting, it was expressed that answering calls was part of my job. So I asked id I was being paid to sit at home and wait for calls. No, I wasn’t “on call”. So, you want me on call? No, just to answer when we call you. That’s being on call, and we’re supposed to get paid for that. No, this is different, we just want you to be available when someone calls out for a difficult patient. Soooo, you want me on call.
This went in circles for a while before I switched gears and directly said that answering calls when not on duty was not in place when I was hired, and that the employee handbook specified that being on call was considered a shift, and would be paid as such, and that maybe I should have been on call any of the dozens of times I did wake my ass up from sleep after workout two or three jobs in the first place, and that I never got paid a dime for doing so, so that was the end of it for me.
The response was that they couldn’t stay operating if they paid everyone for being on call instead of us “supporting the company”. My response was that maybe they could have if they hadn’t shelled out for the Disney crap, or if the previous administrator hadn’t been screwing around and embezzling, and that maybe it was time the company supported us.
Not surprisingly, I was one of several employees “let go to streamline services” a few weeks later, right before the company folded entirely.
So, you don’t even have to have an office job to get treated like shit! Isn’t that a relief? Isn’t it?
The people who should me steering the ship often would never accept a position at the helm, and then we are left with people serving up platitudes about why they deserve free labour.
Only thing you left out is when they say, “it doesnt come with additional pay but it will look good on your resume!”.
The response was that they couldn’t stay operating if they paid everyone for being on call instead of us “supporting the company”.
That’s the heart of the matter. They wanted you to support the company, without the company supporting you.
“No, not like that!”
In all of my IT jobs I would have been fired if I had signed into work accounts on my personal phone. It’s a pretty big security risk.
Eh, it doesn’t need to be, you just need to do the work of putting together granular access controls that can account for your risk profiles.
The risk isn’t much different between a company owned telephone and a personal telephone.
They’re both susceptible to most of the same attacks, or being left on the bus.Most companies seem to have don’t ask, don’t tell policies in place.
Technically we’re not allowed to use Teams on our phones, but most of us do, including management.
I’m also technically not allowed to use Spotify on my laptop, but if they’d enforce that ban, IT would be gone tomorrow.
Unless it’s 24h gold service with 24k gold pay, the work phone gets turned off at the end of office hours.
There are places that pay well for on call though.
Sounds kinky.
While true, most enterprises have ways to silo and encrypt their data on non company controlled devices.
Android does something like that when you install ms office apps with administrator controlled policies
Fuck their data, what about my own? That pest of an app is not getting onto my device. And neither is anything else that gives an employer any control over my device.
My policy as well. Non-negotiable hard no. But I’m fortunate enough to have at least some choice with regard to employment.
A totally reasonable stance.
For clarity, the android feature essentially makes a work dedicated partition on the phone. Their management app can manage that partition, and for the purposes of data movement it’s essentially a distinct phone.
If they’ve set it up correctly they can do a remote wipe without touching your personal data.In a lot of cases the drive to have users use their personal devices rather than employer owned ones comes from the users, not the workplace. Only needing to keep track of one device is easier in many cases.
True, but in small companies it’s not uncommon.
Not exclusive to IT; I had to weigh the benefits of continuing to work as a caregiver for a small company, versus working in retail for a massive chain (which translates to fantastic insurance benefits.)
Sadly not a competition.
I was at a subsidiary of a very large company and had work slack, email, and all my code on my phone, without even the thing that lets them remote wipe your phone.
It has to do with culture and willingness to put in the effort by the security organization
Get hit with one ransom ware attack and that shit’ll pivot 180.
Yeah, or even just budget cuts. I am sure it’s cheaper to just lock it down.
In my current job the old manager okayed working on our own devices.
I would use my personal workstation to ssh into and do work on my work mac, did that for a few years. saved me disassembling my desk between uses every day or buying a costly KVM.
They seem to be getting a lot more uptight about security these days (although the “you can work on personal devices” rule hasnt been explicitly rescinded) so i have stopped interaction between my personal devices and work devices.
Having a M2 mac recently makes it easier, i can lie in bed and work pretty much all day on a single charge so my desk remains intact
I remote into my work laptop too, but I don’t have any work data on my personal devices. And, my desktop is more secure than my work laptop.
Ol Reliable…
Should be the standard anyway. Reading email and texts from work, or responding to calls, is work. Unless your contact specifies on-call hours, you should ignore your boss outside of working hours. If they really want you to respond they can pay you overtime.
Places that specify on call time also tell you not to check stuff when you’re not at work or supposed to be on call though, because that’s expensive for them. And if they tell you to check something they just put you into on call pay.
The policy is you can only work from home when it benefits the company, not you.
Removed by mod
I’m learning that the hard way. Started working for this company 2 hours from home,because I could WFH 3 days a week. Now they want me to come in 4 days a week. So I’m looking for a new job now. Which is a shame, because I do like the job.
Remote rocket ship and hiring dot cafe
.
What does your contract say? With this back to work bullshit I made sure my contract explicitly said I was remote.
Doesn’t mean they won’t change their mind but maybe I’ll get severance instead of fired for cause of they have a back to the office push.
The term of art in employment law is “constructive dismissal”
Good tip, I’ll double check that
keep me updated!
Keep us updated!
We need the update more than a windows user need a rollback.
That’s an exaggeration…
And my axe!
most hires don’t get contracts
Huh? All jobs come with an employment contract.
You must not be in america. We’re lucky if we get breaks.
I’m an American and I’ve always had a contract. Even in retail. Of course the contracts are all bullshit and just a waiver of my rights.
Land of the free and all that. Free from paid healthcare, a decent public education, a strong voice in government, an impartial justice system, employee rights… With all this freedom, it’s hard to imagine wanting to be anywhere else.
Freedom to treat your employees however you want!
So if the employer suddenly decides to e.g. start paying you less, how do you prove how much your pay should be?
Previous pay stubs I suppose. Depending on the employer you may have something in writing. This typically wouldn’t be contract if you’re an employee without a union.
There is nearly always a contract and the business will submit tax paperwork with your compensation to the IRS.
Under the table workers are illegal and on their own
Someone does some digging and figures it out, and maybe five or so years later you get a check in the mail for an amount the lawyers agreed was correct.
That’s cute you believe that
My dude, we’re talking about remote work office jobs. Not some random under the table shit.
My dude, that’s exactly what I’m talking about. That’s me in fact.
Even if I had a contract it wouldn’t matter as I live in a right to work state, they can fire me at any point without warning or cause.
Having any real employment contract is NOT the norm here.
Non office jobs are more likely to be unionized and this have a contract than office jobs.
That’s the type of thing non W2 self employed contractors or union members might have to lean back on, not rank and file full time office employees.
…you shouldn’t have to respond in home hours regardless. Any time you spend on work during your life outside of contract is them stealing your labour.
many people who work from home have flexible work hours (they can decide if to work in the evening or morning) and so they need to be reachable at any time, even it it might be off hour
I have flexible hours. What it means is not that I’m reachable around the clock, but that I decide when I work and am reachable.
i wonder if this means you tell work ahead as to what time you’re reachable
Kinda. I set my office hours in outlook, so people see if I’m available. I mostly don’t actually work at unusual times. But I can, if necessary. What’s more important is that I don’t answer work calls outside my hours, unless it’s one specific co-worker or I know in advance that a certain thing may require my attention.
Either this or there are defined “core hours” where everyone must be available.
No. If they are expected to be reachable for 24 hours they need to be paid 24 for 24 hours
I keep critical applications running at work that thousands depend on. While I was at a union convention, one of my apps broke. I had to login that day and fix it while going over the budget with other members.
This is how the IT world is. I’m the only person capable of maintaining it and I must be available if things go wrong. The show must go on.
Most IT positions are salary so this makes sense and is reasonable for critical systems. If you’re not salary, yikes.
Many IT jobs require an on-call rotation. Even when not on call, an SME can be called in an emergency. Time spent on call-outs typically either pays overtime or gives comp time. The infrastructure has to keep running, that’s just how it is.
pays overtime or comp time
You’re very funny, great joke! 😭
Incoming employment terms ammendment:
You can work from home but only to answer us when we contact you. You must answer our contact and must report to the location if requested. If you can do something cheaper (for us the company) and faster (for us the company) then that is the only time you may perform a work duty at home.
*ammmendment
You must answer our contact
“I cannot answer the company contact after hours because for every call I get after hours that isn’t a company contact, following an order from work to monitor those on the chance of a company contact itself represents ‘working from home’ which the company forbids. I cannot violate the previously stated company policy.”
It’s EU law that if you have to be standby to pick up the phone and go on location at a moment’s notice, those are working hours and need to be paid in full. Most companies are pretty careful to not put it anywhere in the contracts or house rules that you have to be on stand-by, but just verbally keep pushing for it. If they keep pushing, push back with asking for the written rules.
That sounds like something a functioning government would do.
In America, we get the “privilege” of At-Will employment.
It’s the same in the US. 5 CFR 551.431
B 1 of that says it’s not the same.
What does the EU regulation say?
I can’t understand how Americans cope with so much freedom.
We don’t have time to think about it much.
Excuse me, I need to spend the next 2 hours trying to get my insurance company to pay for my medical care.
I always refused to put work apps on my personal phone because they would make you agree to some bullshit where they could remote access your phone or potentially wipe it. So I would refuse and say they needed to provide a company phone for me if it was that important. Most companies are either ok with this or provide a phone, except for one company. This was a software company, and literally everything else about this company was a unicorn of a job. But for some reason they wanted me to have slack on my phone and also wouldn’t give me a company phone. So I dug up an old phone, reset it to factory settings, and added slack to that so I could say I did it. Then I put the phone away and they never asked about it again. So I really don’t know what the point of that was 🤷
for some reason they wanted me to have slack
I get similar requirements from school and kindergarten nowadays. They want me to install weird apps for communications. Last school had an online portal on the web and mail. That was a no brainer but these apps?
Hello Waydroid.
Not gonna taint my own phone with this stuff. That includes WhatsApp.
Same as. Certain family members expect everyone to be on Facebook and also drink all of Zucks Kool-Aid.
I just don’t go to those family events, unless I’m personally invited. If an event only exists of Facebook, it does not exist to me.
I have 2FA apps on my phone for work. I also have the horrendous HR app for applying for Annual Leave. If they insist that I need more work-related apps on my personal phone, I will be getting a second phone and using that exclusively for work. It will be turned off when I walk out the door at the end of the day and kept in my office drawer.
It’s less cognitively taxing for me if you just comply with whatever I’ve decided
Amazing
I love this.
Zeitgeist material
We did it, classic
I don’t like the font.
Would be less cognitively taxing for them if you did.
My current pet peeve is Email servers (MS Office) configured to only allow connections from outlook. I’d be happy to add an account to Aquamail but they won’t let me. So no work emails on my phone or personal laptop.
Ditto, but this is actually a bonus for me.
“Didn’t you see my email and message last evening?”
“Not until I got in today, because it came after I had logged off and I can’t see that stuff on my personal phone because, you know, IT policy.”
While I agree with you and understand that perfectly, slack doesn’t have that remote management thing, so far I’ve only seen that Microsoft apps.
Its a feature of mobile device management software. Intune for microsoft is one but theres also intelligent hub/airwatch, citrix, manageengine, etc.
Keep telling the DBAs that my company outsourced a big chunk of their tech stack to that its against company policy to work all the way on the other side of the planet, but they refuse to show up to the office.
And…? How did the story turn out?
After four years of work from home, since the beginning of the pandemic, we’ll soon have to start going back in once a week. I know, that’s a lot better than many people that have been forced into 5 days a week or similar bullshit, but it’s definitely one more day a week than I want to go in. DC area, too, so you know traffic is going to be a nightmare, as always.
I’d even be willing to go in quarterly or whatever for special meetings. But weekly? We’ve proven we can do this.
They’re pushing this whole “hybrid” working and “rethink how you work!” and “it’s all about teams!” But they didn’t require any sort of coordination on coming into the office for teams, or anything along those lines - it’s a free for all. So instead of sitting at home on a call, we’re going to be sitting in cubicles on phone calls. It doesn’t make any sense.
And even if they had decided teams should coordinate in-office days, my area in particular works with so many different teams that we’d still be remote for most of them. Or in the office every day, which would not go over very well.
But I’m sure the Popeye’s (fast food chicken place) across the street will welcome us back. The one that has survived over four years without us. No one I know has ever gone there.
We’re going to lose a bunch of people as a result. And hiring is a disaster that isn’t likely to be resolved any time soon. It’s gonna be a fun few years…
Counting down the days until I can retire. Unfortunately, there are too many, I’ll have to deal with this. Or find a completely remote job.
I know, that’s a lot better than many people that have been forced into 5 days a week or similar bullshit
I hope for your sake this isn’t just their first test followed by an escalating series of demands :-/
Ha, actually they played themselves on that front. I don’t want to get into all of the details, but basically there’s literally not enough space for all of us to be in on the same day. There used to be, but they shrank the footprint to save money.
Honestly I think the plan from our upper management was to allow a lot of full-time remote working, but that got killed by even higher up people. So, now we have this. I actually think our upper management isn’t really the bad guy on this one and are just trying to make the best of a bad situation, dealing with idiotic requirements coming from on high.
I also think there are some artificial factors keeping it at one day a week, for now. It might go up to two at some point in the future, but a lot can happen between now and then. And two days might start running into that space limitation again, and they won’t easily be able to expand the footprint - nor will they want to spend the money.
I’m not allowed to work from home and it seriously pisses me off. Whenever I complain about this to my boss, she always gives me shit like “you’re a school bus driver”.
I am in a weird position, as a software developer, I work for a tiny company and they’re against work from home, but they’re absolutely amazing and accommodating in all other areas and I have no complaints.
So I had car issues and was able to work from home 3 days a week, but it still pisses me off that I have to go in those two days. They say it’s so we can communicate and ask for help, but mostly it’s a silent office and we can’t even wear headphones. Often I can go in and if I’m in a mood there is no communication all day long. Yet I’ve had to take a 3 hours public transport route to work (car issues) just to sit there and not talk.
I’m torn because they’re amazing in every other aspect and super understanding about my mental health issues and leaving early and making up time etc.
People will look at one aspect and say that the job sucks. Truth is, there is no perfect job and only you can tell that it balances out. The way you talk about it really feels like a nice place to work, with the exception of the headphones thing, that is weird. And if you like to chat with coworkers a full remote Job may be kinda hell, it is really easy to feel isolated and not connect with people because it takes more effort like going to audio or video calls to hangout or having to chat over text more
Exactly. I feel like a couple of the comments have come across as just leave if it isn’t 100% perfect, where I agree that no job is 100% ideal and it’s about trade offs.
As much I have lamented going to the office two days I week, I do notice on the weeks where I don’t go at all (feeling a little down or under the weather I can stay home more) that my mood dips and as much as I am introverted and love alone time, I have years of experience of being a faux extrovert and I actually need to converse with people to be happy. The worst thing for me is to be depressed and then isolate myself which makes me worse. Luckily Minecraft is a marker for me. If I find myself wanting to play Minecraft I am probably not doing well and just want to shut off and mindlessly play solo 😂
Headphones as a reasonable accommodation for a disability eg ADHD/Autism/etc might be a good option if it applies to you
Feel ya, no job is perfect. My giant employer is great about WFH for those hired as such during a particular period of time, but they’ve outsourced HR entirely to a third party - a simple inquiry becomes a three day saga, abd if I’m talking in real time to HR, voluntarily, it’s because I’ve a concern of some immediacy.
WFH plus great benefits > downsides, but it’s always a balancing act of priorities for sure.
accommodating in all other areas
have to be completely silent at work
can’t wear headphones
they don’t get mad when I’m sick
no communication all day long
don’t have targets
are you sure?
Absolutely. As I said when I had car issues, which are ongoing for almost a year now, I was able to work from home.
If I’m not in a good head space I can just log off and make up the time whenever I want. I get as much support as I ask for.
With the no targets (even if my brain doesn’t do well with that) it means I just work and never get questioned about how long something is taking.
My boss will take my neurotic nature into account when doing things. So when he took me out of the office to give me my raise after a year he messaged first to say can you come outside with me, don’t worry it’s not for anything bad.
I am being mentored and when I ask for help he will break things don’t and tell me why he made certain choices when engineering a solution.
Edit: Naturally this is my first role in this industry so I have no frame of reference.
this just sounds like the bare minimum they should do…
This strikes me as you’ve never had to work menial jobs before, as the bare minimum in the other 60 jobs I’ve had in my life is paying me money, and nothing more.
I mean I don’t know your life, but “no targets” doesn’t read “good work environment” to me, it reads “no work/life balance”
I have no other job in this industry for reference, but I will say the work life balance is I work 08:30 - 17:00 with an hour break and as many smoke (vape) breaks as I want.
Outside of those hours I am not to do anything. I’ve been told this when I’ve done bits on a Saturday because I wanted to finish something, that I should bot do that and to just do the hours I am paid for. We are encouraged to take our breaks and holidays and not work ourselves to death.
My employer is very chill and always says the client and the work is second to us as our lives matter and the work can always be done later.
Which is cool as we have some global clients that are big names. They work with us as we are chill, my boss is a genius, and we are fair. If we quote for a project we will often spend months changing that software to fit their changing needs and will not quote for more money as the way he sees it is, we get more repeat business because we are fair. If the client is taking the piss then obviously we will cut it off and re-quote, else we will just do what they want.
If your boss is great than you scored big. It is hard to find an understanding boss. Especially if he takes the time to mentor you. Most ppl do not have time to teach their juniors. See this as an investment for the future you. I think it sounds stupid to quit because of one reason if everything else is great. But if working from home weights more than anything else then yes you should switch.
We got the “order” to work at least at the office 2 days a week two weeks ago because the community we had has been lost. But so far have I only seen the same ppl who was at work before the “order” (I have been at work twice a week because of a project so I can tell if there is any difference) so yeah, I think most just yearn for how it was. And in the big schema of things will this only be x years or even only months of your 80-90 year old life.
I assume most are angry because they don’t get a good logical reason to why, because there are none, it is all about feelings, like community, showing customers their employees, or feeling in control because you can see and talk to ppl about what they do and if they need help. It can also be less pleasant reasons that most have already stated.
You are the only one who can make a decision for yourself. Remember that you can switch if need be.
As a developer for 15 years: there’s no reason to put up with any bullshit in this field. They need us more than we need them. This field is mercenary as fuck.
I’ve switched jobs on average every 2 years, except for one that I went back to for a second stint and one that was just a great place to work (remote). My salary has quadrupled in those years and I’ve learned never to stick around out of fear that there isn’t something better: there always is, and if the next job isn’t the one, get another one after that (and probably another raise).
can’t wear headphones
Wow, imagine coding without podcasts or music…
Yeah it sucks. I often work with a hoodie on with hood up so might get some AirPods just to have classical music playing on low as those days in the office are tougher than the ones at home where I can blast tunes or podcasts all day.
My friend likes this 3hours podcast of bunch of people in a table just chatting and talking over each other and I can’t stand It, I like a 20min podcast that has a script, is edited and transmit a coherent message. Them he told me he likes to listen like in the background while working (we are programmers) and then it all makes sense. I can’t listen to the type of podcasts that I like because I have to pay attention. Music is better I can tune out the music while focusing on writing code (and maybe reading code) but I can’t do it while I am reading documentation and researching.
I’d grin and bear it to be honest. Perhaps try and look at it like time you won’t be spending money on utilities to warm your house and stuff like that. For perspective, though, I prefer going out to work rather than working from home, and my commute takes just over an hour each way four days a week.
Why no headphones? Is management a bunch of Nazis?
By spreading such usage of the word Nazis you’re numbing down the average person’s response to someone being called a Nazi, as it becomes a normal thing.
Save the term for people who deserve it
Like Trump
I’ve once visited an office that was like this. Was a publisher with a big IT department. Large office room, perhaps 40-50 desks. No headphones allowed. I don’t remember the reason. I would go crazy, it was not a quiet office.
I have no idea tbh, on the headphones side; they’re not Nazis (I don’t think).
What if you just…wore headphones? Will security escort you put with a baton?
No but I’m sure the bosses would ask me not to do that.
You won’t be able to hear them! Problem solved.
If you’re a developer just get a new job. Seriously, don’t put up with it
As I said they’re incredible in other aspects and my imposter syndrome makes me worry I still dont know enough and that I don’t belong. I’m almost two years in so my plan was to wait here until I am more confident in my abilities and then begin interviewing again.
I also suck at interviews and with my ADHD I’m either coming across as weirdo, I shut down or I overshare. Seriously had like 50 interviews to get this job.
The only way to get better at something is to do it more. That includes interviewing for jobs.
This is very true. I guess it’s a me issue but in my current mental state that isn’t another anxiety I need right now, but when I am ready to move on I understand I will just have to persevere and interview more.
Sometimes there are local resources for learning the craft of resumes and interviews. Sometimes they are also free. Check with your local library, the local community college, the local social services. I would also seek counseling and medication for the anxiety. Don’t let that stuff be an excuse to hold you back. Sacrifice some money and free time now and you’ll make a lot more money later. I know this is all easier said than done, but it’s worth doing.
Thanks and I appreciate you taking the time to last some resources.
I will spend the time now to increase my chances, but I am not money orientated. If I have enough to do what I want hobbies wise I’d rather have an easier life than loads of money.
Doing interviews when you know you have nothing on the line is a good way to practice, because you don’t need to care if you do badly. Bonus is, you might end up getting an offer for something better :)
They’ll hire remote drivers from India soon enough.
I’ve traveled in India - there’s no way that would produce anything but piles of dead children. My money’s on being replaced by AI first.
